Dr. Debbi Zinni on the Science of Closure: How She Brings Heroes Home
What does it take to bring fallen heroes home—decades after war?
In this powerful episode of ROAR, host Danielle Davies speaks with Dr. Debra Prince Zinni, a trailblazing forensic anthropologist whose work helps identify the remains of missing U.S. service members through science, compassion, and extraordinary persistence.
Dr. Zinni shares how she went from reluctant biology student to leading the Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency’s Laboratory, where her team combines cutting-edge technology with deep empathy to help families find closure.
⚖️ In this conversation
• The human side of forensic anthropology—science meets soul
• What it feels like to reunite families with their loved ones
• How women are reshaping STEM and government science roles
• Balancing rigorous lab work with purpose, mentorship, and motherhood
00:00 Introduction to Roar Podcast
00:50 Guest Introduction: Dr. Debra Zinni
01:38 Debbi's Journey to Forensic Anthropology
07:08 The Mission of DPAA Lab
09:59 Women in Forensic Science
17:54 Balancing Science and Emotion
32:13 Emotional Reunion for a Service Member’s Family
33:29 Intersection of History, Identity, and Advocacy for Women
34:50 Challenges and Changes in Forensic Anthropology
35:49 Mission to North Korea: A Historic Moment for Women
40:47 The Process of Identifying Human Remains
41:58 Mentoring the Next Generation in Forensic Science
48:14 Balancing a Full-Time Job and Entrepreneurship
48:45 The Journey into the Wine Business
52:04 Connecting Through Wine and Real Estate Ventures
57:15 How to Support the Mission and Get Involved
01:02:05 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
To learn more about the DPAA and the work they do
Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency:
(We highly recommend the DPAA Agency Video on the right hand side of the page)
Resources for Families, Including Service Casualty Offices of each branch of the military:
Books Mentioned
The 10X Rule:
To get in touch with or follow Dr. Zinni
Scout & Cellar Wine:
FB: Debbi Prince:
LI: Debbi Zinni:
IG: Debbi Zinni:
Listen to ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture & Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. New conversations every Tuesday.
Full Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and lightly cleaned up. It may contain small errors.
Hey, I'm Danielle Davies and you're listening to Roar, a show that amplifies the voices of women breaking barriers, leading change, and making real impact. Keep listening for bold ideas and stories that inspire you to find your voice and make some noise. Takeback Trust is a directto patient education and empowerment platform that helps people navigate and access reproductive health care in an increasingly restrictive landscape. Through clear, actionable resources, Takeback Trust equips individuals with the knowledge and tools they need to advocate for their rights and get the care they deserve, no matter the political climate. Hi, this is Danielle Davies, the host of the Roar podcast.
And today we're joined by Dr. Deborah Prince Zinni, a woman whose career bridges science, history, and compassion. As the director of the Defense P MIA accounting agency's laboratory, and try saying that five times fast, Debbi leads efforts to recover and identify the remains of service members from conflicts like Vietnam, Korea, and World War II. Beyond her role in forensic anthropology, Dr. Zinnie is also a mentor to women in science and a successful entrepreneur.
Let's dive in. Welcome, Debbi. Hi, thanks for having me. Well, I'm very excited to have you. And so, full disclosure to anybody listening, I also know Debbi personally.
So, I just think her story is so amazing. I had to take advantage of her friendship and share it with you all. So, let's just start at the beginning. So can you tell us about your journey to becoming a forensic anthropologist and eventually leading the lab that you lead now? Yeah, my if you had asked me when I was a young kid, where would I be today?
This is not what I was envisioning at all. Like this is like a complete like 180 left turn like and my mom's like, "What? " Because when I was in high school, I hated like dissecting things. I wouldn't dissect the frog. I like totally was like I'm going to just read what you guys need to do and you guys over there can do everything and then that is like involved then I you know taught anatomy and different things.
So it's this really weird journey but when I was applying for colleges I was I was an athlete. I was a volleyball athlete and was looking at schools to play volleyball and had several scholarships and I chose my university based on where I wanted to play volleyball. And when I got there, the academic counselors and some people on my team were saying, you know, take anthropology. It's an easy a when we're in season, you know, you want to have a lighter schedule. And so I signed up for an anthropology class and it was introduction to archaeology and physical anthropology and I loved it and we were going to go out and do this excavation of this Civil War battlefield and because we were in season I wasn't going to be able to go do that excavation.
So I ended up dropping the class because I really wanted to go do that and ended up taking it you know the following semester. But then what I ended up doing is just taking all of my electives in anthropology because I really enjoyed the subject. And so when I was started off, I was going to be an early education major. I wanted to teach kindergarten. That was what my dream job was at the time.
And I just filled all of my electives with anthropology classes. " And then as time went on, I was like, I could major in anthropology and I ended up double majoring. so I ended up with a psychology and anthropology major with an early childhood minor and, you know, wanted to just pursue anthropology. And my parents are like, "You're nuts. You're never going to get a job.
" They wanted me to teach and coach volleyball. " and I went on and did a master's at George Washington and then had a great mentor. I got to go to the Smithsonian and take some classes there and be in the Smithsonian like after hours. So I felt like yeah kid in a candy shop. It was really interesting.
but had a really great mentor when I was there, Dr. Doug Yuglocker who did work for the FBI at the time and gosh, he was just really amazing. And I ended up going to the University of Tennessee for my PhD at the time. And now I feel really old because back when I was in school, you know, there was no CSI. There weren't any of these forensic shows on TV.
And it wasn't really a big career field or topic back then. So there really only two universities that even worked with forensic anthropology and it was the University of Tennessee and the University of Florida. so two that was it. It was like two SEC rivalries you know like sports but then also you know those were like the only two programs and so I ended up going to the University of Tennessee and getting my PhD there. Loved it.
" Yeah. And you know what, and I'm cutting you off, but beyond other things like that people might take away from this interview, I feel like there's hope for people who have like high school students who hate science and then end up turning it around like when they find the thing that really suits them. Yeah. And I think that is key because it's if you find something you love. It's it's it's not work.
It's not effort or you know, you have to put in effort, but it's it's not like I've got to go to school. I've got to go take this class. if you again had asked me when I was younger, would I have been in school for as long as I was in? I was like no. Like not at all.
But you find something you love and it just kind of unfolds. Yeah. But it's funny that your parents were worrying about you finding a job because not only have you found a job like you have like the job in this field. So will you tell me can you share to us what exactly because I don't know that it's common knowledge what the DPAA lab does and I feel that everybody should know what you're doing because it's so important and also you know obviously you have a husband who is military. I have a son who aspires to a career in the military.
These things are deeply personal for us, but I think that they're personal for anybody who's ever lost a person that they love, you know, in any way, you know, whether it's your grandom or your aunt, you know, you know where they are. You know, whether you opted for a cremation or a burial, you're you know that they've been put to rest. And to not know, and now I'm jumping ahead because people might not know what you do. Can you tell me can you explain to people what you guys do at the lab? I mean so far as you can share.
Yeah. So our agency so the defense P MIA accounting agency or DPAA our mission is to provide the fullest possible accounting of our service members from past conflicts. so mainly the Vietnam, Korea, and World War II. but we also do some other conflicts up through the Iraqi war. to return those service members, find them, identify them, and return them to their families.
You're like, that's it. That's it in a nutshell. But it's but it's a huge endeavor. Yeah. Yeah.
So, our agency is it's it's over 650 personnel. We have civilians, military members, contractors. our laboratory is one of the bigger parts of our agency. We have about 160 folks that work in the laboratory from all different disciplines. so the majority of the folks that work in the lab are anthropologists.
and what we do is when we have skele well actually we'll go out and we'll help when we going we're going to send a team out to the field. We'll have a anthropologist, archaeologists, which we call our scientific recovery experts. They'll go out, they'll lead that excavation. They'll tell the teams where to dig, how deep we're going to dig, that we're going to recover any of the evidence, but they're going to take, you know, copious notes and documentation. because when we're doing archaeology, it's it's a destructive method.
So, we're going to remove, you know, things from the field. We got we have to know where it came from. We have to know where each piece of evidence was recovered from and how it relates to all the other evidence that's found. So basically when we get back to the lab, we need to piece that site back together and know where everything was found, how it relates to everything else, how it relates to that site. it's it's so interesting.
It's so interesting because it's completely nothing that I've ever done or come across in any Although I will tell you that just today when I picked my daughter up from school, her new assignment right now for chemistry is like a CSI type of thing. So, they're starting to introduce it and it's the first time she's been excited about chemistry. So, next time I make it out to Hawaii, I've got I'm gonna I'm gonna beg another tour for her. But, Absolutely. but you know, and I'm jumping around here too, but I wanted to say I'm going to backtrack.
There's a reason I'm asking it in this order. you know what you're saying and there's so much about what you do but you know you when you're talking about the organization and you talk about like the destructive method and then you have to really reconstruct what you're doing and I'm almost thinking about how you had mentioned before that and I thought this was really surprising but that this is very much a female forward field in terms of sciences. It is. And it's it's really interesting because so when I was in school at Tennessee, there were hardly there were hardly any men in our in our classes or in the department. I mean, there were a few, but not many.
And at the time all the professors were male and because there were only a couple universities the laboratory out in Hawaii here it was a predecessor organization but would heavily recruit out of Tennessee and Florida so that's you know the only place that they could really go to get people to come in and work for the lab. and when I ca first came out to Hawaii, there were hardly any women. Like the most of the, you know, were men. A lot of them were old, you know, older, I guess, in my age now, but back then. and it was it was really interesting to see how because I think when I was in grad school is when it's it that shift had started that it had really become more female dominated and it's just continued over the last 25 years that the field has completely flipped and it is predominantly female.
so it's it's and people are always like, why is that? And it's like I it's people have written papers on this and this isn't just for forensic anthropology. It's forensic science in general. So you have like your DNA an analyst, your criminalists, like there's so many forensic fields that are just female dominated. And why is that?
It's it's an interesting question and I don't know but I think part of it is sometimes I think men might go into more traditional like engineering or you know things like that where at least in anthropology it's it's a bit of a softer science even though it is science it's STEM but for whatever reason women have just gravitated towards that forensic science and I also don't know if some of the the publicity of like CSI and the show bones and things like that have also contributed to putting forensic science kind of like out there in the forefront that it's you know people can see hey this is a field or this is a career I can go into or I find this really interesting how do I get into it or get involved with it and I this is me totally asking one of those questions that might have to get pulled out because I could sound like a fool but is like there's a there's an organ organization called End the Backlog and they're talking about rape kits and they're and because there are rape kits that god forbid have sat for years and years and years and so they're working on having them all go through a lab and is that also considered like a type of forensic science. Yes. So I also I worked two years at the U medical examiner's office in Boston. And so any autopsies that would come through, you know, that was something that they would always do would be a rape kit for females that would come in that were suspicious like if they didn't know like what happened and that would be one just part of the protocol. what you're asking about is probably just you know women coming into the hospital.
Yeah. But that's like all that in that like you it might go off to like forensic toxicology or forensic testing to run those samples. So there are it's all in that like umbrella of like forensic science. Yes. Yeah.
And so it could go off to either Yeah. the chem lab or the tox lab depending on what their different you know fluids and whatnot that they're searching for and trying to look for with different backlogs. And again, this is way outside my lane, but there are different like NIJJ grants and things like that to help different crime labs and whatnot clear different backlogs that they may have. Oh my gosh. And it's but I was thinking, you know, obviously I've not done any research on this clearly and there are experts researching why there are women involved in these fields, but and you said, you know, in some ways it's like a softer, did you say a softer science?
Is that the phrase you used? Yeah. So it's it's I guess when I was going through it was called a social science. Okay. Yeah.
Anthropology is a is a four field. so it's linguistics, cultural anthropology where you know go and embed yourself with like a culture in say Africa and see what their customs and cultures are like. and then there's physical anthropology which is dealing with just like human evolution and things like that. And then archaeology, which is, you know, then doing excavations, whether it's historic or modern or, you know, could be a crime scene that you would excavate or historical, you know, population like a Mayan temple. It's really all those same types of techniques that you're going to use no matter what kind of scene you're at.
but so those four fields, but then I'd say like the archaeology, the bi biological anthropology is more into that science, science and STEM where some of the other parts of the field are in that more softer like social Got it. type of realm. Got it. Okay. Well, it's just so interesting because I'm like, well, maybe it's like the the organizational like but I I throw these blanket statements across women that I shouldn't do in any way, but I'm thinking about my own personal experience and you as I know you as like a mom and you know, we're doing these things to kind of facilitate our families and in some ways it almost seems like that type of personality trait would lend itself.
But also, you're not just, you know, you're not just lending itself at lending yourself as an organiz organizer or even in this nurturing way. You've got this lab and you're managing global missions. And are there things that you find as a leader specifically or not specifically as a female leader that you rely on more than others? Like are there skill sets that you're like, I don't think I could do this without being this kind of a person? I would definitely say high emotional intelligence and that's you're dealing with a lot of different personalities as you said.
It's it's emotionally charged and a some of the things that we do and just to be able to I don't want to say compartmentalize, but basically just take, you know, a step back, don't have like a knee-jerk reaction to anything that might be thrown at you or at us. we have a lot of competing priorities that happen throughout the day, the week. so just be able to take that in, you know, assess everything. Okay, this is what we're going to do. We're going to lay out this plan and kind of attack it in that way versus, oh my gosh, this came in.
What are we going to do now? Like, so just that high emotional intelligence, I think, is really important. the other thing is I'm really detail oriented. So, I have sticky notes and tasks and lists like everywhere. So, some people might walk in my office and say, "Wow, you have you are so unorganized, but I know where every little sticky note.
I know where everything is. " Of course. Absolutely. because and so and I want to I want to get back to exactly what's happening there because you know you just mentioned the emotionally charged part and to me this is the thing that maybe you don't even see that you need to bring to work because you're not an outsider but as an outsider looking in I'm so impressed with your ability to take what's so emotionally charged in stride so that you can get your work done because a lot there's right before we turn the cameras on, you know, for everybody or we hit recording. I said there's there can't be a day, you know, a good day at work for you is certainly not like, yeah, we landed this code or we got this client.
Like a good day is still a sad day because I'm not saying your whole day is sad, but you're dealing with things that are so you're dealing with such a level of profound grief. You're dealing with people's grief. you're dealing with identifying people who have given their lives to service and so you know that's heavy stuff. So and I was just curious like how much reward how much do you rely on the reward that you must feel when you do provide closure and healing for families? Like are you guys just like thank God this is going to be a day where we get to share some news or is that almost harder for you?
Now, I think it's it's really great when we get to the point where we make an identification and it is it is it's happy and we're we are excited. We get really sometimes there's like cases we're very attached to. Some cases that we have worked on for many years and we don't give up on cases. So there could be cases we've worked on for 10 years and when we finally get that final piece that we've met that forensic threshold for the identification it I mean that we get really excited over that. So I think just being able to provide those answers to families who have waited for so long it is it's really rewarding.
It's humbling work. It's heavy, but it it's really it is rewarding and it's we are excited and happy when we can provide those answers to families who have been waiting for so long. Are you are you able and because I know this is a you know what you do is very private and personal for so many people. Are you able to share with us an example of a time that has been particularly rewarding for you with without you know obviously revealing information that should not be revealed. yeah.
So, with, you know, leaving all names out. So, I've been I've been doing this for a little while. It was 20 years ago that I arrived out here. And when I first got out here, the lab was much smaller. It was only about 30 people, 30 to 50, I'd say.
hardly any women, as I mentioned. And what I was brought in to do is to look at remains from the Korean War that were buried here on Aahu at the National Memorial Cemetery of the Pacific, also known as the Punch Bowl. So these were remains that were in our custody after the war but could not be identified because of the technology at the time. So they were buried at the at the punch bowl as unknown. And what I was hired to do is to research these different cases and see can we now with our technology particularly with DNA and one of the other key pieces that I was looking at is looking to see did we have any radioraphs of that of these different service members.
And one of the other techniques we were doing is looking at induction chest radioraphs that were taken to check for tuberculosis. And we were then looking at the clavicles, the collar bones, and some of the neck vertebrae to match them up with the remains to make that positive identification. so what I was doing is going through and seeing, okay, these unknown remains, who could this possibly be? And I was creating these short lists and doing a lot of the background research. And at the time, and again, things have changed so much.
Now we have teams of folks in different locations in DC and Hawaii and Nebraska all working on these unknown cases. 20 years ago was me like that was it. So it's really interesting to see how much things have grown and progressed and where we are today. but again going back 20 years ago one of the first cases I worked on was this young it was one of these unknowns and I had done all the research and come down and I said I think this particular unknown is this young marine and you know we went through different things. I we got the permissions we exumed that set of remains.
They came into the lab and we work in the blind. So because I was so involved with that case and I'm like I think this is who it is once the remains came into the lab I was not associated with that case anymore. So somebody else got to sign the case to do the analysis. So they looked at that the skeletal remains did a biological profile which means that they determined the age, the ancestry, the sex and the stature of the remains. Look for any trauma that was on the remains that might help with the identification.
anything that would be specific to that person like did they break their arm when they were like 16 and it's showing up on the remains now that might be in their medical record. We had dentists look at the dental remains and compare those and this is all I'm sorry I'm cutting you off but this is all what they're doing is technology that at the time 20 years ago was newer like than it had been say during the Korean War. So some what I've just described they had a lot of those things. Our techniques have gotten better. But then the other thing we did is we took DNA and submitted that unfortunately the DNA failed because of the different preservatives and bombing powders which is why we want to look at radioraphs and other things to get to that threshold of yes this is who this person is.
so part of what this case was really hinged on was there were fingerprints that were collected off the remains back in the 50s. I sent those to the FBI to see if they still had any files for these service members and just also the circumstantial and the I did have a historian that was working with me that helped through this case. but eventually these remains were identified as this individual that I thought it was. and what was really special about this case besides it being like the first one that I had worked on. again from the Korean War when the we don't reach out to families to make the identification, the service casualty office will reach out.
So in this case, the Marine Service Casualty Office reached out to this family informed them that this identification was made and his sister was still alive. And to have a sibling that was still alive really was u like yeah emotional. She had her grandson who was in the Air Force at the time come to the laboratory to receive the remains and escort them home. And they asked me you know he they told me that he was coming. They said would you like to come and meet him when he comes to the lab?
And I said sure I can do that. Not thinking of really what that was going to take and entail and the emotional aspect of it. Like I was just like oh yeah sure I'll go meet him. And so again this is a case I had worked on for like couple years. I had looked at this young Marines's photograph every day basically.
So when I walked out to meet this young airman who was coming to escort his uncle home, it took my breath away when I walked in the room because he looked like his uncle. And I was just like got chills and like almost started like tear up. And I just again like I hadn't put all of those pieces together in my head of like hey this is what you should expect and prepare yourself and I walked in and was like it was heavy and hit me hard of meeting that young man. I'm sure. And you know, the thing is I feel like when we think as people in 2025, you know, we think of people, you know, I don't know that there's anybody around from the Korean War, but you I know my father was in the Vietnam War, so I think of people in the Vietnam War as old guys, right?
My dad's like 77. And that's the thing. Anybody who was in the Vietnam War that's still alive is an old guy. But the people the the bodies you're identifying, they're young guys because they're the people who didn't come back. And so that's just charged in a whole new way.
I feel like I'm going to start crying. that's just charged in a whole new way. So I feel like our whole country, but especially I mean I think of you know back then first of all our whole country has to be grateful for what you do. But back then you know it was mostly men. most men were going away.
So, who's missing these men? It's their wives, their parents, like you know, if they were if they had children. But really, it's like it's these people that they left behind. And in their eyes, these are very young people. So, I was going to say, how do you balance this?
Like, how do you balance this very scientific really rigorous scientific process? because you're going through, like you mentioned, a million things to make sure you've made the right identification with really the emotional toll that it's got to take. And is this why you spend your free time as a wine seller? But we're going to get to that. so I touched on this a little bit.
So when we do work on a case that you know remains are coming into the laboratory, we work in the blind. So we don't know anything about that specific case that would either bias you or that you would have you know that oh this is you know that case that like you know I know that family member they've come to these different you know we do family member updates about four times a year where we have the family members come and we'll give them briefings. So, some of these families come, you know, to everyone or come every year. And so, we will know this case is from, say, the Vietnam War, but that's all we would know. We might know what area, but we don't know who this may be when we're actually going to do an analysis on the remains.
And that's to really try to keep any biases out of the analysis that we're doing. Okay. I feel like that must actually also help you like almost give you a little protection like it's like a little protection bubble by working in the blind because if it were just the whole way you'd be you'd have the it would be unnatural to not be more emotionally tied to it. You know the other thing I wanted to ask you is you know you mentioned that 20 years ago when you first started you were the you were doing this job that now whole teams are doing. Was it always the goal even then that we bring home every service member?
It I mean that's that's been it. I mean that's our job is to put ourselves out of a job essentially. We want to identify them all. and it's it's a daunting task because there are there are over 80,000 unresolved cases that we have from World War II on and the majority or not the majority but half of them are deep water underwater losses. So we don't think that we'll be able to recover those remains that are those deep water losses.
we do some underwater losses and we have even improved our technology there of how deep we can go for an excavation underwater but so we're we're thinking about half of that number. So around just around 40,000 that we think are recoverable. so again it's it's a large number that we're trying to you know find out where they are. do that either excavation or if it's a disinterment of an unknown remain to bring them in and to do that identification. So, can you share a moment or a story where you saw the impact of your work on a family?
Yeah. So, when we moved into a new building, and again, I keep saying new building, it's 10 years ago at this point, but when we first moved in, 10 years ago, we had a, we have family members that, can come to the lab, they can do a lab tour, but also when we have remains that are identified. The family can either have them escorted to wherever they would like the final burial or the family can come have some private time with the remains and then have that military escort to wherever the that final burial place will be. So the first family that we actually had to our new facility came up. This was a mother and a daughter of a Vietnam loss.
And so I was providing them just an overview of our laboratory and the lab tour. And at the end of you know I was just you know telling them this is what we do here. This is how we go about making an identification. at that point they were going to go into we have a family viewing room where they were going to have some private time with you the remains which was the husband and and this woman's father. And the woman was about, you know, I'd say my age, at that time, the daughter.
" And I said, and you know, I'm just there. I'm just kind of now just a person in the background. and I, you know, I just said, I'm just going to open the door for them. So, I'm just, and she said, I just, I need to take a minute. And then she finally said, "Okay, I'm ready to meet dad.
So she had never met her father before and again it was just one of those between having you know the wife and the daughter there and to kind of even just witness that moment and that experience that they were having together and then what they were about to you know encounter when they were to walk into that room. It was highly emotional to have endured this for, you know, 30 years, her entire life, to just not have an answer has just got to be very gut-wrenching for them, but also for you to and your whole team to just I mean, you'd have to be inhuman to not be moved by that. So, okay, those are just my two cents. I want to ask you another question. Your work is deeply tied to history, identity, and justice.
How do you see these themes intersecting with the broader concept of advocacy for women? it's that's that's a really interesting question. So, as I said, with the field of forensic anthropology, forensic science in general being very female dominated, the military there's a lot more women in the military these days when you know the guys that we're trying to identify, we basically say they all have the very similar biological profile. They're all really young. typically like the average age is about 18.
for World War II, it's a little bit higher, but you if we see a set of remains that's over 25, we say that, oh, this is an older person, which in any other context that's like such a foreign concept that they're like an infant, you know, right? but they're also they're all about 5'8. So they're all very you know similar in kind of some of those biological aspects but as women trying to identify these individuals and being you know in this field and I've seen it change so as I said when I started in the laboratory there were very few women I joked about like you never had a wait in line at the bathroom now you're like oh wait there's a line here okay but one of the other things is we used to go into we used to missions to go into North Korea. and as I said, when I started out at the lab 20 years ago, the Korean War is the is the are the remains that I was trying to identify, and those were the ones I worked on a lot. And we stopped going into North Korea and running missions there in 2005, which is the same year that I started.
and we at the time would not send women. That was a rule that women would not go into North Korea. And we heard you know some different things said that the safety of the women could not be you know they couldn't control what was going to happen once you got on the ground in North Korea and the safety was an issue. So in 2018 when the Singapore summit took place and Trump met with Kim Jun one of their things that they agreed upon and I think it was actually the only thing that actually trans you know actually came to fruition in that is that North Korea would turn remains over to us. and so with that, we started, you know, talking about, okay, who's going to go, what's going to happen, how's this going to go down?
And the one of the main concerns is that the North Koreans were not going to give us human remains, that they would, you know, put a cow in a in a box and give it to us. And we wanted to really make sure that the remains they gave us were human and that were potentially our service members that were from the Korean War. And we ended up putting a team together and it was four scientists that we were going to send in. So at the time it was the lab director who was a man. he's now become our scientific director of he's in charge of all of our laboratories that we have.
We have a laboratory in Hawaii and a laboratory in Nebraska. and then there were three women and at the time there was this you're going to send women into North Korea and our lab director said yeah that's my team I want and so the three of us so there were so I was one of the women that went in and two of the head of our Korean War project and her deputy so the three of us and our lab director went in But the other really interesting thing that happened on that mission is the pilot of the aircraft was also a woman. So when we were coming into North Korean airspace and she contacted them saying that, you know, they were coming in, her voice is the only voice they heard. And I like for the other two ladies that were on that trip with we were like ecstatic and we thought it was amazing. you know we went in we landed in North Korea.
We did our forensic review there. We were on the ground for about three hours and then we rec you took the remains. We received 55 boxes that were all human remains and brought them back into South Korea and then eventually back to Hawaii for identification. But that trip was just amazing that you know we had that female pilot and the three of us were there and we had one of my favorite pictures that I have is the four of us under like in the aircraft underneath the flag from that mission. So I think it's just come a long way of you know just for the field but for women and you know there was talk of wait is that the team you want and our lab director was like absolutely that's that's how did you feel going in there?
Were you like was there trepidation? Did you feel like you know a little anxious about it? And I will say it was yes little bit nervous, bit excited. I'm not g I didn't really get the that sense of real nervousness until the day before when we got a briefing of, you know, classified briefing of what to expect and different things. And then I was just like, you know, this is real.
this is, you know, for real that things could go sideways, you know, kind of thing. but I was like, I'm, you know, we're going we're doing this. And you know what? It's crazy because yes, things could go sideways and thank God they didn't, but like you're right how far we've come and I know there's like, you know, it's always like a it's not so much like a pendulum I feel like in terms of women's advancement, but there's like, you know, there's three steps forward, there's two steps back, there's three step, you know, you just it's like incremental baby steps like and we'll get there and it's people like you who will help to get us there because it's the things you don't even realize that are happening that make such a difference. Like how many people in the world know that this was the first time that this has occurred and it's, you know, you've set the stage for future missions like this.
You know, nobody's going to, maybe they'll bat an eye, maybe they'll remain concerned, but it's not going to be like we don't do this now. You've you've set a new precedent. So, sorry banging on the table in emphasis. That's but and they were 55 boxes of human remains. So in those 55 boxes, the remains are comingled, which is also why it takes us a long time to do these identifications.
So these are remains, as I said, we received into the laboratory in 2018. We're still working on some of them today. We have made over 90 identifications from those 55 boxes. so in each box there are multiple long bones. There's some cranial fragments, some dental fragments and things like that, but mostly just the like long bones that were in a box that look like it could be one individual, but you know, doing some anthropological methods, we knew that they would be comingled and that there's more than one person represented in each box.
So out of those 55 boxes, we had about 275 individuals represented. Some of them being South Korean, the majority of them being American because, you know, they were in fighting positions where the South Koreans and the Americans were fighting together. So, but thus far 90 families. Yes. Closer.
Yes. Wow. when new when young women and men also, but especially because you said it's such a female dominated field at this moment. When you see somebody coming in as you know yourself 20 years ago and they're coming into this field, how do you kind of mentor them along with what they're doing because you know you've you've got the experience and honestly will there be somebody ever who has the kind of experience that you've had because you've kind of been here. You know, I always joke with my kids, when I was your age, there was no internet.
Like, there were none of these scientific developments that we've had and these technological advances. I've gone through, you know, where that unique I just saw somebody say yesterday like the grunge era or the generation X is this unique generation and then like we listened to rap and grunge but there's also a little bit of like you know we're familiar with Barry Manalo like there's you know there are other parts of it we've spanned a whole bunch of musical changes and you've spanned a whole bunch of scientific changes so I don't know that people coming in they maybe they know one new thing, but you've got this just this wealth of experience. How do you kind of mentor the next generation that's coming in? " there's a lot of mentorship that goes on and I really enjoy doing that with I even like our the folks in our lab, but I also will do you know high school and even I've done a couple middle school just talks to for women in STEM. I'd say the biggest thing is confidence.
Have confidence in yourself in your abilities because I know that was one of the things I lacked and it's like why? And that's I see that a lot of like the women that I work with today just simple things of hey can you come to my office I want to talk to you and they immediately come in and what's wrong are you firing me did I do something and I'm like why are you going to the negative why would you think something's wrong like you're doing great you're doing awesome I wanted to either like compliment you on this or just give you an update on this other case or something but I feel that a lot of people have that and particularly women that less than feeling that maybe they don't have that confidence that they really should. And it's it's you know own that confidence and and really just you've done the work you know all these you know folks in our lab have gone through they have graduate degrees whether it's a master's degree or PhD you have the knowledge you have the experience and have that confidence in yourself. so I think that's one of the biggest things I really want to instill in them because they are going to be there's a there's a lot of times like I when I go into meetings nowadays you know I'm in these meetings with it could be admirals and generals and colonels and you know looking around I'm you know thinking I'm the only non-military person in this room but I'm also typically the only female in that room a lot of the time and you know we'll be doing these highle meetings And then they're going to look to me and say, "Well, you're the expert. " And they want that opinion.
They want that expert knowledge. " They're, you know, so I want the younger folks in our lab to know that they're the expert and they're going to be looked to as the expert and they do have that the knowledge, skills, and ability to provide the answers that, you know, they're looking for. Do you feel like when you're seeing it come in these younger people and so it's women do dominated at the moment but obviously there are men in this field as well so it's not just one group of people but do you feel like it is more the women who seem to lack the confidence I was asking because I've talked to a lot of women who've run for office and some of them have been very successful and they're now senators etc and some have not but some of the senators one in particular said she noticed that like a lot of times men they are cultivated and raised to believe, hey, I think I'd make a great president. Like they're like, you know what, I think I'm going to run for Congress. Whereas a lot of times women end up running because they see a problem and they are trying to fix it.
So they're coming at it from a different direction, but that doesn't mean they have less qualifications or skills. It just means their approach is different. So maybe their confidence level is different. I'm curious, is it more women that are that seem to be, you know, having to get the guidance to show up in those rooms and, you know, be the expert or is it universally just new people? I think in my opinion, I think it is more the women and again I think because majority of the folks I'm seeing are women, right?
so just right there. but it's also they're they're young. Most of them are really kind of coming right out of school when we're hiring them and we're, you know, attaching them to these teams that are all military. Most of the teams are men. We do have, you know, some female military members on the teams as well, but they've got to go out and then lead that team and they've got to have the confidence to yeah, tell that captain, hey, this is where we're going to set up our grid.
This is how we're going to do it. can you get the team to, you know, come over? We're going to explain, you know, now how we're going to go about excavating the site. so yeah, they this might be the first time they're, you know, they're civilians. They're interacting with the military in, you know, in that way and you know, we tend to look at the military, especially officers like leaders who are leading teams or not off but just whoever's leading the team.
they're the person in charge, but you're the person in charge because that's what you're there for. So, it's it's got to be interesting. I think you're awesome. I think what you're doing is awesome. So, so we'll switch gears here and talk about the fact that not only do you do this, but you're also an entrepreneur, which I actually feel like is crazy because just based on this conversational, I'm like, when you go home, don't you just want to like binge watch TV and like go for a bike ride, have a glass of wine?
Like, but it did start with a glass of wine. It did really start. So, I guess so. Can you tell us a little bit about your entrepreneurship and why you kind of even do anything outside your job and say with this it's it so I'm I'm a wine consultant with Scout and Seller and how I got into that again was not something I was looking for because I have a full-time job and you know very dedicated to it and have not a lot of free time but when in our free time Gabe and I really we love to entertain We love to have folks over. We love to, you know, have people to the house, have dinner parties.
we used to, we haven't in a little bit. I guess COVID threw us off our track that we were on, but we would have like themed dinner parties and things like that, but we ended up, we had gone to a wine tasting at our at our best friends, and Gabe wasn't there at the time. He was, he was actually in Japan for work. " Like, "Here's my number. " And then she called me and you know, Gabe and I had obviously talked because I said, "Hey, I went to the wine tasting.
" And so I was talking with the wine consultant and telling her what our idea was. " Like what? Like I have a job. " and I really loved the wines. And that was, I guess, kind of why I was even, you know, listening to what she was saying as she was going on because the wines are either organic or biodnamically grown for the grapes.
And then even the wine- making process, everything is clean crafted. So, there's no added like toxins, chemicals, dyes, sugar, none of that's added in. So, I really liked the product. And then she's, you know, telling me about, you know, why don't you become part of the business? So I talked to Gabe about it and I was like, what do you think?
And he said, sure, do it and if you don't like it, you stop. And I was like, oh, okay, sure. And so that was five years ago. And it's it's been a lot of fun and it has been I guess this outlet I didn't know I was looking for. And it is I mean it's wine, so it's very social.
It's, you know, when you go to somebody's house, you usually take a bottle of wine. I know it's it's some people don't drink, so it's not for everybody, but and it's dry January right now, which dry January to me is drinking dry wines. so but it's it's it has been this outlet. It's been super fun. It's been a great way to connect and, you know, get together with people and host these wine tastings and, you know, meet new people.
But I'd say it was something I didn't know I was looking for and it's been amazing and it's led to other things. So again in the wine business that I'm in the majority of the entrepreneurs are women again which is kind of interesting. Now there are some men in the business as well but the majority of them are women. the company and our founder and CEO is a woman and it's just it's been this great community of women helping and build each other up and then also I've been exposed to other opportunities as well. you know, we were just getting on Zoom calls and just reaching out to one another and I connected with somebody that I'd never met, but she was in California and said, you know, is anybody else looking for other opportunities for passive income?
And I said, I love passive income. Yeah, sure. What other things are you guys into? And so she introduced us into multif family real estate. And so now Gabe and I have gone into several ventures in multif family real estate because of this connection with Scout and Seller.
So this has all been through your entrepreneurship that you've kind of explored all these different things. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I have a question.
So, have has your job your full-time job influenced like do you take certain traits from work and apply them to your entrepreneurship and vice versa or are they so totally different and that's what you like about it? I'd say one of the things would definitely goal setting. I I've you know set goals like you know through my graduate school of like okay once I knew this is the career I wanted to be in what were the things like that I wanted to do what were the goals I wanted to hit and you know working with as I said Doug Ublocker who was at the Smithsonian at the time I he was a board-certified forensic anthropologist and I said I want to be that I want to be board certified side and it was a goal that I had you know set like when I was very young. there weren't a lot of people who had reached that point of their career and again now with the field has grown a lot I'd say with just you know CSI and things like that like the field you know forensics is is really grown and but I've been board certified now for 15 years so that was like one of the like that was like the pinnacle of where I wanted to get to but with and same thing like if you would asked me 20 years ago when I started at the lab, do you think one day you'll be the lab director? No.
Like I like so I think with goal setting, you want to set your goals high. You want to I'd say one of like my favorite books and I think we've talked about this is the 10x rule where if you set everybody sets their goals too low. If you set your goal here, multiply it by 10 and that's where you should really be aiming. and if you don't get it, you're going to definitely be buff here. The other thing I' I've kind of like just in thinking about like what have I learned over the last, you know, 20 25 years of my career.
as I mentioned, like I didn't not that I didn't enjoy school, but I was an athlete. I loved playing volleyball and basketball and that's really, you know, why I picked the university I went to was because of volleyball and I never thought I would have gone on to get a masters and a PhD. I you just it wasn't anything that I was even thinking about. But I have become really like a lifelong I love to learn. I love to learn about new things.
So when I got into the wine business, I wanted to learn all about wine making and how the soils affect the taste of the wine and just all these things like just these different pockets of knowledge. getting into the real estate market. I'm like, okay, you know, what are the different types of real estate and what are, you know, these different things that you what are all these terms that I need to know and what's NOI and what are these things? Like I love to just learn something new every day. And I think that's, you know, when you find those niches and things that you're interested in, I think that's really great.
Try to tell Gabriel, so I have an 11-year-old, learn something new every day. mill m i l. there's a lot of really good information on the website about just the mission in general. If you have a family member that's that is unaccounted for resources and who you can reach out to make sure one of the biggest issues that we face is having family reference samples. So DNA is a big part of our identification process.
we don't and I guess I should have mentioned this before but when we make an identification it's not based on one line of evidence we use multiple lines of evidence it's usually you know the skeletal analysis the dental analysis if there's any radiography u we do isotope analysis any historical circumstantial information any of the archaeology if it was a field recovery but then DNA is also a big piece of that too current day service members have their own DNA reference on file. so if a current, if there's a current day death for a service member, they can go pull their card and do a onetoone comparison for that identification because we're dealing with past conflicts and we didn't know what DNA was back then. we have to go to the families in order to provide a DNA sample. and so some service members we have appropriate samples on file, but for a lot of them we don't. And so if you have a missing loved one from a past conflict, I'd encourage you to please reach out to the DPAA, reach out to your service casualty office to see if there's a a DNA reference on file for your loved one, and if not, if you're an appropriate donor.
And our DNA laboratory is in Dover. It's the armed forces DNA identification laboratory. and they're making new strides every day, too. So they've just come online with a new technology that is enabling us to go out to family members of you know like further down the line and further distant cousins and things like that can provide an appropriate reference if we get enough that we can triangulate back to that service member. so I'd say that's a really key thing and that's how families can help us do our jobs is, you know, to provide that reference for us.
So Oh, that's good to know. And so I'll include definitely a link to that the DPIA in the show notes as well. And how about for Scout and Seller? Okay, for Scout and Seller. Yes.
If you're interested in wine, you would like to do a wine tasting, please reach out to me. would love to to meet and do that for you. As I said, it's really about connections and it's really fun. I always say I'll bring the wine, you bring the friends, and I do a lot of being out here in Hawaii, I go to people's houses. when I travel on the mainland, I'm on the east coast a lot visiting family that I've, you know, popped in to visit family and I'll do a wine tasting for folks when I'm on the East Coast.
But I've also done a lot of Zoom. So COVID, you know, we had to pivot, you know, when we went into COVID and lockdowns. We had some of the best wine tastings that were virtual because I would send people, you know, I'd ship wine to like somebody's house and we get on a Zoom call. Nobody had to drive anywhere and we had a just a good time connecting particularly during those lockdown periods. comzine.
Zinni. so you can look me up there. That's my website. you can also find me on Facebook under my maiden name, Debbi Prince. I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn under Debbi Zinni.
so connect with me. I love making I will share all of these links as well. If anybody, you can listen to this podcast wherever you listen to your podcast. And so if you check the show notes in any of those spots, you'll be able to get Debbi's contact information. Not all of it.
You know, we're not going to have people showing up at your door, but we'll share the appropriate contact information. Debbi, thank you so much for your time. I know you're really busy and you've got so many things going on, but I think you're such an inspiration to other women. So, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me, for highlighting DPA and the work that we do at the agency, which is it's it really is amazing work that we do. It's an amazing team and it's it's a great mission. So, thank you. That's all for today.
Thanks for listening to Roar. Make sure you're following the show wherever you get your podcasts. And if you know someone who'd love what we're building here, send it their way. Next week, I'm joined by Mandy, musician, songwriter, and founder of Girl Guitar in Austin for a conversation about creativity, confidence, and making a little noise of your own. See them.
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