Why "Having It All" Is Making Women Sick, and What to Do Instead, with Gifty Enright
We’re told women can “have it all.” But no one tells us what that really costs—or how to do it without burning out.
In this powerful episode of Roar, Danielle Davies sits down with Gifty Enright—author of Octopus on a Treadmill, TEDx speaker, and global expert on women’s wellbeing at work—to talk about why so many women are exhausted, overextended, and quietly falling apart behind their polished lives.
After years of chasing success and balance, Gifty hit a wall. Burnout forced her to rebuild everything—from her habits and mindset to her sense of self. Now she teaches women how to stop merely surviving and start living intentionally.
Together, Danielle and Gifty explore how women can set boundaries, release guilt, share the load, and redefine “having it all” so it finally works for you, not against you.
💥 The lie of “doing it all” and what to do instead
💬 How to build boundaries that actually stick
⚡ The connection between burnout, perimenopause, and self-worth
💪 Why saying “no” can be the most loving thing you do
❤️ How equitable living helps women thrive at work and at home
If you’ve ever felt like you’re drowning in “having it all,” this episode is your permission slip to rewrite the rules.
🔑 Key Takeaways from This Episode
You can have it all—but you shouldn’t do it all.
Boundaries aren’t selfish; they’re essential for healthy relationships.
True wellbeing starts with honoring your physical, emotional, and spiritual needs.
Saying no from strength is an act of love, not rebellion.
Equitable living starts at home—with everyone doing their part.
Listen to ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture & Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. New conversations every Tuesday.
Full Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and lightly cleaned up. It may contain small errors.
House. Hi, I'm Danielle Davies and you're listening to Roar, a show that amplifies the voices of women breaking barriers, leading change, and making real impact. Keep listening for bold ideas and stories that inspire you to find your voice and make some noise. Hi everyone and welcome back to Roar. I'm your host Danielle Davies.
My guest today is Gifty Enright, author, TEDx speaker, coach, and globally recognized expert in women's well-being at work. But what stand out stands out most isn't her resume. It's her refusal to accept burnout as a normal part of women's lives. Years ago, Gifty was doing what many of us do. Balancing a demanding career with raising kids, pushing through exhaustion, and trying to hold it all together.
When her health, energy, and ambition started slipping away, she didn't just settle for coping. She changed the way she lived and the way she thought. Now she teaches other women how to do the same. In this conversation, we'll talk about the pressure to prove ourselves, the myth of having it all, and what it actually takes to build a life that works for you, not one you're constantly trying to survive. So, let's dive in.
Thanks so much for being here, Gifty. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. Well, and as I said before we started, I just was I've been reading your book, which is Octopus on a treadmill, which I think there is no better description of a mother. I used to actually say to my children when they were young and asking me for multiple things like they do.
The requests just coming in, keep coming in and there are only two of them that I'm not an octopus. I would say does it look like I have eight arms? I'm not an octopus. So that really resonated with me. can you start us with the beginning?
Can you take us back to who you were before burnout forced a reckoning? Yeah. So, the person I was that type A person and literally, do you know what any man can do, I can do better. And just, you know, going toe to toe, very competitive with the men at work. And I was just climbing up the corporate ladder.
Nothing was going to stop me. Do you know? obviously at that time I didn't know what I didn't know. So talking about burnouts, I had a fullon consulting job with travel and all the other things. I had a side gig as well.
who do you know has side hustle and there were kids, two kids, two dogs and a husband, right? So there was a lot going on and at any one point I had to find out where is my head, which space is my head in, do you know? and I am that type of person. I like to be busy. I mean, my husband says I'm dangerous when I have nothing to do.
And it's true. Do you know I am that type of person. But what I didn't know was that my body had other ideas and that nobody was born to operate that way forever. Do you know? and you have to yes you can go 100 miles an hour, 200 miles an hour and that is fine, but not forever.
you know, you have to find a way of you know, when you do your 100 miles an hour, find downtime and chill. And so, I found myself standing in Harley Street, which here in the UK is this particular street full of, you know, private doctors and stuff. clutching a spreadsheet of 14 symptoms going to see a specialist because you know my own doctor wasn't taking me seriously and my husband is like if you don't get this sorted out you know cuz he was fed up of my mood swings and whatever. So I had to something had to give, something had to change, do you know? and so I was practically brought to my knees by this sort of hustle culture and high octane lifestyle, which I thought that was what it was supposed to be.
That was what life was supposed to be. You're supposed to chase all those things, get all those material things, and then and then you'll be happy. And I did that. Got all those things. And I was the most unhappiest I'd been since I can't even remember.
So there you go. Well, and you know, you talk in the beginning about your book and I think this is before the 14 symptoms though, the surgery that you went that you had to kind of undergo and then the fact that even though you had to undergo the surgery, you like you bounced back. You were at a doctor's appointment. " And you're like, "Me? I'm not even here for me.
You're so we're so used to as women, as mothers being the fixer, you don't even consider the time it takes to fix yourself or or kind of, you know, they say, "What is the thing? " And I always joke to my husband who's a wonderful guy. You don't have any problem. You've nailed self-care. You're gonna put you will put that oxygen mask on first.
You're gonna listen. " You It's just a lot of times in our nature. So what was the can you tell us about that bring you to your knees moment that made you realize you can't keep living like this and then and then what you did to kind of rewire the beginning of the rewiring. Yeah. So that moment you mentioned when the doctor asked me and I remember that clearly.
So I was there with my mom and the baby. and you know my mom you know she's 88 now but back then she anyway she had multiple things had to be seen to you by the doctor. And so when that doctor asked me how are you that was just a complete like blindside like I'm not even in this equation right that's a baby that's my mom why are you asking about me and again you see when you said about you know when it comes to the men and the oxygen mask society conditions them in such a way that they are very good at the boundaries stuff we're Not because we're supposed to be nurturers. We're supposed to give and give and give until we buckle. And if you're not giving until you're buckling, you're a bad mother.
You're a bad sister. You're a bad daughter. You're bad whatever. And so nobody had pulled me aside to tell me otherwise. So I didn't know any better.
Do you know? I had to keep being a good all the roles I was playing. You know, mother, daughter, wife, sister, the whole shebang. And so when I was on my knees where literally I come home sit down from work and you know just I open my eyes next and the telly will be watching me right because you know I would have fallen asleep and stuff. You think this is no way to live and my kids and again people say you know there's no point in regret and it's true.
So it's a useless emotion because what are you going to do? it's already happened. If you're regretting, it's already happened, right? but I regret not being a present mother at that time, you know. and there were things that I had to retrofit.
And obviously, it's harder to retrofit and it takes longer to retrofit than if you got it right in the first time. But when I was on my knees do you know I love these children dearly but like they'll come and ask me mom for some I'll be thinking oh [gasps] god yes you know and luckily for me I got boys so I could always use the go ask your dad card right go and ask your dad to play whatever it was. you know but it was just horrid that all these things that I wanted I got them physically but I couldn't enjoy them you know I was stressed out I was irritable with my children my husband was getting his ears chewed off for just breathing do you know it was just insane saying I couldn't live like that anymore. I had to do something. And so trying to find my way back, that was actually even harder than how I got in there because how I got in there was just following my conditioning, right?
Trying to be a good whatever. But coming out though, I remember going to my doctor and she was like, you know, so you're tired all the time. you got small kids, you got a full-time job. This is normal. Do you know?
It was supposed to be normal. That's just the way it is. And I thought, I don't think so. Do you know? And so it's that fighting to be taken seriously as in there's something not right here, something's wrong.
and me myself going on a self-discovery. Do you know? And for my sins of course I'm 105. This all also coincided with the permenopause. So you had you know the burnout symptoms you had the perimeopause symptoms all me meshing into one.
And I didn't know which way was up. Seriously it took every hours of everything I had to go to work and be all hey I know what I'm doing. And then just come home and just collapse. and so it was a complete overhaul of the lifestyle. That was the first thing for me.
Lifestyle. in terms of what I eat, in terms of like before then I didn't used to exercise. Well, I hated sweat. Do you know? So I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. I hate it also. I also I mean who likes it? It's gross. I just why I know God and all that kind of stuff.
So, but I because I didn't understand anything about anything, you know. and your body will let you get away with all that madness up to a point and then after a while it just says, "No, I'm not doing it anymore. No, no, I'm just going to just No. " So, it was a complete overhaul. And when I say that, I mean holistically.
is I'm looking at mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, do you know? and find a different framework, a different way of doing life, a sustainable way of doing life. Cuz what I was doing wasn't sustainable. Hey everyone, I've got some exciting news. I'm partnering with Louie.
That's Lu Wi, a company that's reimagined women's health through the lens of the P word. Yep. Pleasure. Because pleasure is a vital sign. It's not taboo.
It's not indulgent. It's wellness. Louisube is more than a siliconebased formula that skips the toxins and hormone disruptors. It's the start of a movement that puts wellness and pleasure first. com.
com. And use code roar15. That's r o a r15 for a special discount at checkout. I was going to ask you something else, but now I kind of just have to I'm following along here. I could you tell Well, first of all, can you tell me what you did?
Are you Can you share this with us? Because And kind of I almost want to be like after you tell me, would you be able to tell me like what your day used to look like versus what your day looks like now so I can see it because of course I want to do everything you're talking about now and I am. Yes. And I think I don't think I'm alone which is why you're a public speaker. Absolutely.
Absolutely. So, honestly, I used to stay up because I've never been well, I'm not like that anymore, but I left to my own devices then. I'll be the one up at 2:00 watching Netflix, right? and then we're in the morning can't get up and thinking, why can't I get up and be fighting with the alarm, you know, hitting snooze, right? and so I had to sort out my bedtime pronto and make sure I was getting my eight hours right because that tiredness I was feeling was just because of my erratic lifestyle.
And I didn't know that. And I was having this memory issues and memory fog and all that. And I challenge anybody I challenge anybody that's got that foggy brain thing. Sort out your sleep and within two weeks you'll be surprised. You will be surprised.
so it was things like that, sorting out my sleep, sorting out what I ate because I thought I ate healthily, you know, I thought I knew about food and ate healthily and all that and I didn't. So I had to go and learn about food properly and understand what is good for me, what's not good for me and all that kind of stuff. And it was interesting because and the body is so smart. just adjust very quickly as well. So, I used to have wine gums.
I don't know if you guys have it in the US. maybe you call it something else. It's wine gums. It's sweets, but okay, it's like jelly as we call it wine gums over here. You get different flavors.
And I used to have it by the bucket notes, you know. So, I have the sugar cravings and really terrible sugar cravings. And because I'm lactose intolerant, the wine gums didn't have any dairy in there. So literally I packet and just you know down it and I didn't know why I would be craving. Obviously I'll be craving it certain times of the month as well and I still wouldn't you know I always had to have a packet of wine gums.
but then do you know it's just blood sugar levels all over the place and then do you know when you are approaching your periods different things happening with your body. I didn't understand any of that do you know. [clears throat] and so I have these cravings. I just keep feeding my face all the sugar stuff and you know I wake up in the morning and breakfast more sugar stuff, right? So because you need now you need to keep yourself up because you're tired, right?
Like Right. And the body will crave that because it wants that quick energy, do you know? and sugar will give it that quick energy, but it is not where the nutrients and everything that you need. Do you know? And in the morning when you're having that sugar stuff, you know, you're spiking the blood sugar and for the rest of the day your body's chasing that high, you know, and so you're looking for more.
And so I had to learn about that, learn about what to eat, for example. so I don't have the sugar spike during the date, you know, cuz at that time, and this is going back years now, so at that time, nobody was talking about sugar being the thing that makes people pull on weight and all that. Everybody was still thinking it was the fat, right? Oh, got it. Okay.
Right. And so it was just people would be having lowfat whatever it is and you know sugar packed whatever. but it was understanding. So I actually and I love food by the way and I love cooking and all the lovely stuff. and for me it was good to understand about food, understand what is good for me and how to support my body, do you know and so I went and learned about that and I mean know I understand that savory breakfast was better for me than going to have the sugary one because I don't want to change the sugar high type thing.
Do you know and so basically I changed food and then hydration do you know I wasn't hydrating no do you know no I wasn't hydrating but again I understood that and then you know started including my hydration and start I had a system in the morning where I would start so by the end of the day I had enough you know of my hydration so that was on a physical side obviously and then introducing exercise into my life. So that's a physical side and if we talk about the emotional side of course I had a very stressful life very stressful life but was I processing that stress in any way no I had no stress management techniques I was just yeah stress okay let's all wave our hands and flap our hands we're stressed and then it will pass and then off you go again nothing to process and let it out do you know what I mean and so it's learning about stress management ment and learning, you know, how to get it out of my body, for example. I mean, this is where exercise like it can cut through stress like knife through butter, do you know? and understanding all those things and just building a life that allows me to manage my thoughts. So this is the emotional side as well because you know something negative happens and I will be there stewing and stewing and stewing over it and you get caught in this loop that is going absolutely right and again so it's learning how to manage my thoughts because they affect how I'm feeling you on the emotional side and then when it gets to spiritual it was having a framework and this is different from different people it's what works for you do you know it's just having that spiritual framework work that allows you to live a life that serves you.
So I give you an example of that. So it's not something esoteric, but I mean I believe my body is a temple. And if your body is a temple, you're not going to put rubbish in your body. Do you see what I mean? Nobody puts rubbish in their temple.
So it is having that philosophical framework that allows you to live the life that works for you that is also sustainable. How long? But this is I mean you know you can say it in a few minutes but how long did it take to implement all of these changes because it's really you're talking about a whole lifestyle overhaul. Yes. Absolutely.
And I would say for me to start seeing that it would have taken me about three months to try different things and what works and what doesn't work cuz in the book I I talk about funny story that I try because I did try different modalities and what I'm going to settle on and what I'm not going to settle on. and yeah so I would say well it's like the sleep when I fixed the sleep within two weeks I could feel the benefit right and so I had to get religious about my sleep for example but that's very easy to implement you know and then the food understanding about food that took a while that took a while and continuous learning and doing things I didn't like and my kids had to eat some weird stuff but there you go [clears throat] you know some things work some things didn't But you know there was that and then finding a routine that works for me like a daily routine. Do you know that works for me? So you're not getting up and first thing you're on the phone and then it gets your cortisol up and then off you're going stressed out even before you know you've left the bed you know. So I changed all that around.
so like when I wake up you know first thing is you know take care of the spirituality bit. I will do my meditation and do my mindset stuff and then we're looking at the exercise and then after the exercise then that is when I will be looking at anything resembling a phone do you know? Oh wow. Okay. What can let me ask you just totally being hyper specific.
What time do you go to bed now? So 10. So I have a window. So it's between 10 and 11. Okay.
Yes. So it's between 10 and 11. and then I will wake up between six and seven. So, I allow myself that one hour flex depending on what's going on, right? Okay.
But definitely no later than 11:00. No later than 11:00. and then, you know, normally I will wake up about say half six if I'm tired maybe seven. But so that window I have, you know, 10 and 11 and 6:00 and 7 in the morning. Yeah.
" I'm like, "No, really. I because I left to my own devices, I can stay up. " And the problem is that the world does not revolve around us. So, you either get up early and you're exhausted or you sleep and you're on a schedule that's different from everyone else. So, I really relate to that.
But I'm sure so many women relate to so much of what you're saying. It's so universal. And I wanted to go back to something you said before I talk about how you work with women now, but you know, you talked about ambition and you wanted to do it all, but that also some of your regret is that you weren't able to be more present with your children. Do you feel like sometimes wanting more or being ambitious you're made to feel like a bad mom in society? Like you unfort they say we can have it all but really if you have children a lot of times people like what aren't you h like you have your children be happy about that and you almost feel guilty that you want to do something else as well.
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean that is one of my favorite things to talk about. Thanks for asking that question. because and I say to women, especially when I coach women, you should have it all.
I honestly because there's some people think if they oh you shouldn't try and have it all or you can't have it all and whatever. Nobody's saying that to men by the way, right? Nobody's saying that to men. So why is it even being said to us? so for women you should have it all but you shouldn't do it all.
That is a difference. You shouldn't do it all. You should have it all but don't do it all. Some people try to and nuances by saying oh you can't have it all at the same time and whatever it is. No you I am quite belligerent about this.
you should have it all. have it all at the same time but do not try to do it all. That is the differentiator. You know, you need to accept help. It takes a village, get that village, recruit that village, buy that village and allow them to help you because we were not supposed to be the only ones in our children's lives.
It's not even healthy for the children anyway because they will go into society. They have to know how to relate to everybody. So if you're the one doing everything, running around them like a blue ass fly, how are they ever, you [clears throat] know, going to get that, you know, confidence when you're not around and all the rest of it. So I hear what you're saying about women are made to feel guilty about going into the workplace, but unless men are made to feel guilty, women have got no business feeling guilty. Point one.
Point two, if you have the systems in place to support you whilst you head into the workplace so that you're not dropping any balls, that deals with the guilt. Because what happens is sometimes because we got a million things on our plate and we haven't learned how to delegate and we haven't built our village and we don't have the ninja communication skills to communicate our boundaries, we end up with too much on our plate. And so what happens? " And you shouldn't do it all, but you should absolutely have it all because the men aren't doing it all because some woman is subsidizing them having it all. But then when we're trying to have it all, we don't have that subsidy, right?
We don't have those systems in place. No. No. Now, do you is this part of when you work with a lot of professional women and you coach and you speak, is this what are you trying to help them build that system? Could you walk us through that?
Yes. Yes. So, it's the systems. So, I mean, when I work with women, so again, I work holistically. So, f first off, we're looking at you.
So, what I was talking about in terms of physical side, the food, the exercise, the whole emotional processing and all that, we deal with that first. " H Yeah. Because it's important, do you know? and then, you know, once the body is strong and you know what you're doing and you know how to process those emotions and all that, then we'll put the strategy on top of it, you know, because nobody can go and have a difficult conversation. Well, they can, but they will not get anywhere if you yourself are not feeling physically and emotionally strong and you're all over the place, right?
And life is difficult. Life is tough. And so, you need a strong body and a strong mind to be able to deal with life. Otherwise, you just been blown about by everything that comes at you. And while that is happening, whilst you're being blown about, guess what?
The kids are watching because they think, "Oh, this is the norm. This is life. It's scary. This is how it's supposed to be. No, you don't want to pass on all that dodgy conditioning to them.
Yes. Yes. And you're Yes, you're right. And it's and I feel like that is kind of the biggest guilt you have as a as a mom or at least I hear that from people. You know, you're trying you are trying to do everything.
You're like an octopus and you're but you're also trying to portray yourself as handling stress all right so that you can your kids can take that on and handle stress themselves. But you're not. And they're the They can see through all of the pretense. Yes, they can. It cuts through.
They can see through. Absolutely see through. Do you know cuz they feel these things. They're not stupid. And even when they don't have the words to articulate it, they feel it.
Do you know? " You know, that would bring security and all that. That's not what makes them feel secure. What makes them feel secure is for them to know you see them right. That is what makes them feel secure.
You see them for whoever whatever they are. They need to feel seen. So as a parent your job a obviously is to protect them physically and all that and also make them feel seen because if at their core they don't feel seen and they don't feel they belong that's what leads to all the other you know downstream psychological issues and all the anxiety and all the rest of it. So they at the start you need to make them feel seen and important and when you're engaging with them they are the center of your world because you are the center of their world right so you're informing a lot for them and so if you're coming at so when I'm coaching women and they're taking all these things porous boundaries and sitting there all resentful what I'm telling them is that resentment Right? Whatever you're giving to the child when you haven't done the boundaries is contaminated.
Right? It is contaminated. So you don't that's not what you want to be giving the child. You don't it's better not to give them anything than to give them that contaminated attention and love and whatever it is. You know, it's better to just remove yourself, go deal with your issues, and then come back and give them what you're supposed to give them because otherwise that contamination that you're passing on to them, they don't have the tools.
They're not that developed. So, they process it wrongly and they go down that it's my fault route, right? It's my fault, mommy is this, it's my fault, mommy can't cope with this, it's my that's how they process it. And you don't want that. You don't want that.
Well, and so and a lot it sounds like and I read one a lot of things you're talking about is boundaries to create these systems. Can you talk to us a little bit about that and what you see as kind of the easiest or the simplest or the ones that are that have the least resistance versus the ones that are the hardest kind of for you to hold or for women to hold. Yeah, I can talk about boundaries until the cows come home. because and I'm sure now everybody knows that you know no is a complete sentence. but it's like sometimes when we when we have to say no rather than just saying no we feel we have to give a whole TED talk rather than just say no.
And the boundaries come from low or lack of boundaries come from low self-esteem and low self-worth. Because if you honestly thought you're worth it, right, saying no will not be a problem for you. Because listen, my time here, so [snorts] I was supposed to coach a client yesterday and she came on the call and she's I'm at a networking event and I'm like, "Listen, darling, you're not going to shoehorn me between a networking event and whatever. We're not doing this call. " If you were a client, if this call was with a client, will you be shoehorning the client between a networking event and whatever?
No. But because it's a her, we never give ourselves that attention, right? But this was something for her, it's like I'm going to shoehorn it in between that and that because I can't possibly be that important, do you know? So when you're looking at self-worth and self-esteem, those are sort of things that make it hard for people to say no. And if you think you're worth it, it will be easier to say no, right?
And like my women, I make them go and take a survey so they can find where they are on the self-esteem chart. and so what we're saying about is it's the easiest. So boundaries a definition of boundaries I heard well I forget who I heard it from but I thought it was great. It allows you [snorts] to be your best self for others. It allows you to serve others better.
Right? So if you want to do good by your kids, if you want to serve your kids better, you have to have those boundaries because otherwise you will be serving them from a substandard place and your children deserve premium, don't they? Oh, absolutely. And it's so interesting, you know, you're saying this because I feel like and it is so much of it is societal and I don't know, you know, it's what you grew up with, but my sister and I talk about all the time. " But really it is society kind of expected that we will say yes or no.
I had my I had a reading done human design. Have you heard of human design? A friend of mine did human design and she was doing mine and she said to me and it stuck with me if it's not a full body yes for you it's a no. And I've thought about that as I've said yes to a million things that don't feel full-bodied yeses and I'd rather not do but I end up doing anyway. I'm like I have to stick to that.
I will be a better person for all the people around me if I if I adhere to that boundary and I say okay if it if it doesn't full feel like a yes then maybe it's a no. But society it is so hard for us to let people down. What is this one of the hardest things for women that you train to do? Yeah, because we have been conditioned into that good girl thing, right? So, we're always looking for validation.
We're looking for praise, do you know? And because of that, because you're looking for that, so the validation, approval, praise, right? That's the condition. So, we're always looking for those. And so if you're going to say no to somebody, you're going to put their nose out of joint and your conditioning doesn't allow that, you know, you cannot inconvenience somebody else cuz you're not going to get the praise.
You're not going to get the approval. So suddenly the alarm bells start going in your head because you are going to, I don't know, inconvenience somebody. excuse me, what about you? [gasps] Right? So if you flip that somebody for you, right, then it should be if you're going to feel uncomfortable about inconvenience somebody, you should feel uncomfortable about inconveniencing you.
That easy. Just flip it, swap it out. Right? So at any point, who are you inconveniencing? Is it you or somebody else?
And when it comes to us inconveniencing ourel with ah it's all right. I can I can it's all I'll swallow it or whatever it is. Do you know because we think the other person can't cope and damn right they can't cope because you've been subsidizing them all this time. So they of course they won't cope. And you know unless you allow people to know what is okay with you and what's not okay with you, they will merily carry on.
Even if they know it's not okay with you, if you haven't said it, they will merily carry on because it's convenient for them to carry on. Do you know? So, we cannot expect other people to enforce our boundaries for us. No, that is the job you have to do yourself. And you have to know where your red lines are because some people don't even know where their red lines are.
They really don't. Do you know? and even when they think this is a red line that they just go over it because you know they've been feeling so bad all their life they don't even know what good feels like. And so it's finding your backbone, finding your spine, knowing where your red lines are and arming yourself with the tools to be able to communicate. Because knowing a boundary doesn't mean you can't communicate it.
And why don't people communicate it? Because they're going to lose love. they're going to lose praise, they're going to lose approval, all that kind of stuff. And they don't want to lose it. So there's almost an ego death thing that they don't want, right?
So because of that, they would rather inconvenience themselves, for example, than say no to somebody. I mean there was this there was there was this thing about in the aviation industry where basically the stewardes and stuff you know people find it so hard to say no they would almost rather you know watch their plane crash than say no to a pilot or something do you know but that's this is so built in us do you know so they had to come up with code words that they could use to allow them to say to somebody in a senior position up in the air that mate you know what you're doing is not okay anything but no so wow I know I know because people would rather die literally so it I know I know so it is understanding this understanding how we work and also knowing that okay I need the tools that will allow me to say no and learning those tools And then you deploy them. So when I coach my women, I make them go have a difficult conversation. It is a task they have to do. I make them go have a difficult conversation.
Choose anybody. Your boss, your husband. One woman chose her mother-in-law. I thought that was brave, but hey ho. Right.
to go have that boundary conversation cuz the mother-in-law used to bring the kids back whenever she had them high on, you know, sugar and everything and they would take them hours to calm down and the routine all over the place. And so she didn't like that, but she found it hard to tell her mother-in-law because, you know, it was a mother-in-law and then, you know, the mother-in-law was helping by taking the kids off her hands. So, Right. So, you feel like you owe them to not say something. Yes.
And for me that was when it came to boundaries that was one of the things I struggled with the most and was I had no issue maybe it's got a rebel in me speaking truth to power and saying no to power but when it came to subordinates and you know I found it hard because I'm thinking oh poor them and whatever and I'd rather inconvenience myself do you know that's something I had to learn even if somebody's doing you a favor whatever it is do you know you still have a right to say no or communicate your requirements clearly to them because it makes for a cleaner relationship with them. Otherwise, you're resentful, they're resentful, nobody's happy. And this is part of what you this so this is part is this part of what you yourself mentally kind of changed your brain to start addressing and doing or is this something you had in you before you just didn't maybe utilize it? I feel some women have you just said you have no problem speaking truth to power. Some people are much more timid I find and have a harder time Yes.
verbalizing or vocalizing anything like that. Yeah. So, were you already kind of there? I'm just curious what it was like in your own transition. Yeah.
So, and this is and also understanding your patterns. Do you know cuz I thought I thought I was assertive. Do you know until I had to understand that yes, I was assertive with people outside my home. Right. when it came to my nearest and dearest, it was like everybody was getting away with blue murder and all that.
So again, it's understanding. So at work where I would not like put up with that nonsense for a second, do you know I will come to friends and family and then you know I'll be a different person. So, it's also understanding my patterns and understanding that it's something if somebody's crossing my red line, it doesn't matter whether they're a boss or my sister, you know, I had the right, you know, to be able to communicate my needs to whomever needed to know. So long as I was respectful and wasn't attacking the individual, I had a right to communicate my need because that's what you're doing. You're communicating a need.
That's what if it's a red line for you is a need. And so if you're not communicating that need, you're compromising your relationship. How do you help your clients kind of establish? You said that they don't all know where that red line is. How do they work through that and even identify that these are the things that are kind of maybe soul sucking?
Yeah. So, and this is it. So, well, first of all, I make them go take the self-esteem questionnaire. And then I also give them their rights because a lot of people don't even know what their rights are. They really don't know what their rights are.
and so I have a whole list that I give to them that these are the these are your rights. So the ones that you're uncomfortable with, start learning because these are your rights. Do you know things like this is one people struggle with that you have a right to change your mind. Do you know you have a right to change your mind? So you said yes to something and things have changed.
Do you know? And so you have a right to change your mind. And even if things haven't changed, you have a right to change your mind. Do you know? And they're like, "Okay, I said yes.
" no. Right. And so, and it sounds so simple when you say it, but people really do tear themselves up over saying, "Well, I said I would go. " Like, because there's also that, right? So it's a it's a it's a play that you have to but listen life in terms of skills of life right one of the main if you want to get on in life you have to be able to handle rejection and at some point you're going to let somebody down willingly or unwillingly was it willingly wittingly or unwittingly somebody down right and some of us our self-esteem was not going to because Everything had to be perfect.
Everything had to be a-ok. Okay. And we cannot be seen to be messing up or whatever. So because of that, you can't possibly let anybody down. Your self-esteem just couldn't handle it.
Do you know? But think about it. We all mess up sometimes. We all make mistakes sometimes. And we all at some point will let somebody down.
Do you know? And so long as you're not doing it out of badness, then because that's a different story. So don't be bad. Don't do out of badness. but do you know you promised to go help somebody and they've made their plans and included you in it and now you can't do it because of X Y Z.
Do you know? Now what people do is because they're afraid to tell the person what happens. They will leave it till the last minute and then really let the person down. That's not fair. That's not fair.
Do you know? And so rather than sitting there in fear and in fear and in fear and in fear, oh my god, I don't know, whatever, whatever, if you told them as soon as, it would have given them a chance to do something about it. Do you know? So, in the end, and this is what I mean by compromised relationships, if you don't enforce your boundaries, you do contaminate your relationships if you don't enforce boundaries because you breed resentment on either sides because you're going to let somebody down if you're not clear with them. and they're going to feel disappointed and all the rest of it and if you don't want to do it and you do it, you will be there resenting doing it all the time and they sense this too.
So, at some point the being afraid to let somebody down is not a good enough excuse if you genuinely cannot do what it is that they're asking you to do. Do you know because at some point in life, everybody lets somebody down. That is just a fact. And you just need to be authentic about it when it happens. Let people know so they have a chance to plan rather than, you know, leaving it last minute and then phoning them on the day and telling them you're sick.
Gotcha. " Yeah. How does that how does that work? like can you tell me how that works? Yes.
And so I have a whole module I teach called equitable living and so that's about having it all because there are households that you will have the woman running around after everybody doing the laundry, the food, everything for everybody and then she's exhausted. And then you know there other human beings in the house and they're doing what they want but she is doing everything else that she has to do right and it's because a she has not communicated boundaries. And so the thing about equitable living when I teach these women, I say to them, look at your household as an enterprise with you and your husband as directors and the kids and whatever as employees and stuff, right? And you are sharing everything because you guys are running this outfit together. And I honestly believe as soon as a child is upright, give them a job.
If they can walk, give them a job. Even if they have to drag their clothes, whatever, give them a job because what happen? It actually builds their confidence. It builds their self-esteem and their sense of self as well. They're contributing to the household and it means when they leave home, they're independent.
They can do their own laundry, blah blah. [snorts] Right? So it is about doing pulling them in pulling I mean when I talk about some of the things I I had to retrofit because I mean I was working 247 whatever I had nannies and whatever and yes I would try and impart my values but for somebody else it was easier to do it themselves than get their kids to do it you know. oh yeah right absolutely let me just take care of it I'll be faster and more efficient more efficient you know rather than you know getting the kids to do it and stuff like that and so then you will be having the wars at the weekend because it's like so and so lets me do such and you're asking me to do such and all that but like now my kids have grown up and you know I cook when I want to eat because my Point is, everybody's got hands, right? Everybody's got hands.
Everybody can read. So, everybody can read a recipe. I'm the shortest person in this house. Everybody in this house is six foot. They're all bigger and stronger than me.
So, I expect them to wait on me. I think that's fantastic. So, do they That's one of the boundaries that you set and establish in your home. Yeah. Everybody has got to contribute.
They have to do their bit. They have to do their bit. Do you know and like my boys now I mean if I am cooking I suppose my compromise is if I am cooking I cook for everybody because it's enough. But if they're cooking what they will cook for themselves. Fine.
I'm cool with that. I'm cool with that. Right. But if I if I'm cooking I cook for everybody. But otherwise, if I'm not cooking and people are hungry, you know where the fridge is.
You know where everything is. You've got hands. I've got hands. I love that because I feel like so many times, don't you hear I hear and I specifically hear this sentence from moms, I'll just eat cereal. Like as if that's the thing we all will do.
We're all willing to do that to not have to cook. Yes. Yes. Yes. you know, but they have to you have to give them the skills to support you.
And so when I talk about equitable living, you're sharing everything and it's good for the kids. It is good for the kids and it takes the pressure off you as well, you know, so you're not running around doing everything. So, you know, you have whoever's doing the bins, whoever is doing their laundry, whatever. But everybody has their bid that they're doing. And I mean, like, if my boys expected me to do their laundry, they'll have something else coming.
Like, no, I do nobody's laundry. They got hands. There you go. I know. But how long and out of curiosity, well, you started this journey kind of into this world of coaching and kind of understanding your own approach to this.
Sure. When your children were very little, right? They But they were already in existence. Is that Yes, they were in existence. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It's not like you said, you had to go back and retrofit. It's not like you had this No, they were in existence. So my oldest now who is what 25?
Yeah. Yeah. He would have been like 10 or even maybe early teenage. Yeah. Yeah.
Oh wow. Okay. And you did it though. You retrofitted it. Oh yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I had to. It was a survival thing, right? It was a survival thing.
and it was just And this is because I think as women we're not fair to the men, right? Like now my husband does more housework than I do, right? Believe it or not. And he would have done it all along if I had let him. Do you know?
But I was busy being superwoman, right? And so I didn't know about this equitable thing and to get everybody involved and all that. So you know they'll be there watching telly and I will be there I know doing all sorts and come downstairs all resentful that they're sitting there watching telly. Yes. You're behind the scenes doing Yes.
Yes. Yes. And so it's about people I got one woman she rang me. She did become a client in the end but she had like seven kids and she's like I'm exhausted and some of the kids were growing up and I run around after the kids. What's the matter with you?
You got seven resources in the house. Do you know you got seven helpers with you? And you know, I feel like it. Tell me what you think of this. You're an expert and I'm I'm not.
I'm just speculating. But I know that my dad So my dad is 78. He's one of eight children. When he was young, they all had to do stuff. They eight children.
They all had to do a lot of stuff. In fact, we always laugh because he's the godfather of one of his own siblings. Like they're so far apart in age that he was basically expected if anything happened to the parents to raise this particular child. So but as you know parenting has shifted right so it used to be very much a hierarchy and later times it's become a little bit more of a democracy. people are close to their children have are having conversations with their children that they maybe didn't have in past generations.
So things shifted but unfortunately along with that shift came somehow one person the mom ended up doing all of it even I feel like even more than they did way back then. You know I feel like yes there was the mom and maybe she stayed at home and did everything but she definitely had the kids doing their things also. Now we've shifted a bit and in some ways good but in this way not good. So when you have clients are you finding what's a what's a thing that is the hardest shift for them? Is it setting the boundaries with like their mothers and their mother-in-law or is it within their own houses?
I'm just curious what you're seeing as someone in this space. Yeah, it's it's within it's within their own household. And believe it or not, even in this day and age, getting their partner more involved even in this day and age, getting their partner more involved because I had one woman tell me that, oh, you know, the husband cannot work at the washing machine. I'm like, can he read? Do you know, can he read?
So, it's just we accept these roles and yes, I don't want to mow the lawn, right? I don't want to put the bins out, but I actually have a spreadsheet that I make them sit down. Yes. Yes, I do that. Going and basically, you know, it's like come up with the chores, what it takes to run the household and then put the names against it.
And then because even I love doing this with the women who think that oh my husband is good or my partner's good and they really you know they help out and nobody's supposed to be helping anybody. This is a joint enterprise. So first off you need to take the help out right and then here is the you know if you like here are the deliverables that make this house go around and who is going to do what and when you sit down. And so one woman she thought I love this. I love this on I love this on so many levels.
Keep going. Sorry. Right. So she because even the ones that think oh yeah my partner husband does by the time they finish that they realize that they're doing a hell of a lot more cuz they don't know. They just you know when you sit down you quantify that's when you realize oh okay shift this here shift this here shift this here.
And then it becomes a conversation because also the men or the partners they're not being bad. There's a lot of things you do with the fairies. They It's not even It's completely oblivious to them because it's just dark, right? Silent running, right? It's silent running.
So, they think, you know, the elves come in the middle of the night and mob the floors or something, you know, and you cuz you just take it in your stride and you don't make it visible to them. is just you just do until one day you explode. But rather than doing that stick you all down that gives them that visibility as well, you know, and they're surprised then when the men want to help because they didn't realize you're carrying that burden. You were so efficiently carrying that burden and silently suffering. They didn't had no idea.
And when it's there, they look at it and they think, "Oh, okay. Okay, I'll take that. " Do you know? And then you have that equitable thing and one of my women so they had the son how old was he? He wasn't he wasn't that old but his job then in the evenings was to lay the table.
That was his job and he loved it. Absolutely loved it. Do you know and again it gives them that sense of self and they're contributing and all that. So get everybody involved and you get everybody involved. you're living equitably and then you're not there burning out whilst the others are sitting there watching football.
Quick pause to thank all of you for listening. You may have noticed that Roar sounds a little more polished this season. That's thanks to my producer who's responsible for making this third season sound as good as it does. com/roar podcast. Your support truly makes all of this possible.
And now let's get back to the show. So tell me from your personal standpoint how your life changed when you because these are a lot of things and I and we're probably not even covering them all but you know you basically you did a full gigantic shift and you also shifted jobs right because now this is what you do full-time. So tell me how your life changed from when you thought you had it all but you were very unhappy to now if you don't Yeah. No it's completely different you know. So, first of and today I heard that expression for the first time on LinkedIn.
Putting your heart where your mouth is. No, no, not putting your heart where your mouth is. It's putting your heart where your money is. That's it. Oh, I like that.
Yeah. Am I hope I'm saying it the right way or putting or putting your money where your heart is. That's it. Or whichever way it goes. But you know what I mean?
Because normally we say put your money where your mouth is. Is that the expression normally? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes. So, put your money where your mouth is and now you're putting your money where your heart is. and so I was doing what I thought I had to do, you know, rather than what I wanted to do. And we all do that cuz we've got bills to pay and all the rest of it, you know. and at some point, you know, we all have to do what we have to do.
we don't have a choice. But what I say to people is as soon as soon as you can start doing what you want to do, you need to start pivoting, you know, because if you're just not doing what you want to do, there's always that sense of disqu so you can have all the money you want, but there's that emptiness and all the rest of it. So, there is that on the work side. And then for me it's my relationships with people where I used to be this I had this savior complex you know you know is like don't even tell me your problem I will guess what it is and I come and fix it right do you know insane or what so I had to give that up do you know give that savior comp complex up even because what you do is you infantilize people do you know and they all, you know, stand around looking at you all the time to be the savior and come and fix things. And it's exhausting.
It's just absolutely exhausting, you know. And now I learned to sit on my hands and watch people go through their own mess ups and whatever and whatever. And I'm not jumping in to save anybody, you know? I'm just, do you know, allow them to grow their own wings. so yeah it's in my relationships and yes did it cost me some relationships yes some dependent relationships yes but did I want that do you know and now obviously kids are different but you know for peers and stuff I'm not having those dependent relationships no I don't have to prove anything to every anybody and again for me that was a self-esteem issue cuz I thought my self-esteem was fine and all this but no I was still doing that validation approval and praise so by saving people that oh god is she good is she kind because you're you're you're tied to this.
It's part of your identity. So Right. Right. And you know the there's several ego deaths you have to suffer by cutting these things off because you know that validation you're getting is not going to be coming. But it's okay.
It's a small price to pay for living your authentic life. So yeah. So my relationships there had to be a call there and so that I have cleaner do you know relationships and then of course physically you know I live different now and also for me communication is key you know to be able to say to people that was not okay with me without thinking and then there's that expression that those who care will understand and those that don't understand don't care. Right? So, if they value you enough, they will make the time and space to hear what you're saying and if they don't understand, you can have a dialogue.
do you know and go from there? So, I live very differently now, but like I said, I'm 105, so I've been through the mill a few times and gone through a few dead ends and culde-sacs to get to where I am to live, you know, in a different way cuz I, you know, because we met on LinkedIn, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
" Or am I right? Am I? This is Do you know it's a fact, but you are brave to say and that's the thing I was going to say. You know, it's funny and you know, you're talking about this and you're so it's so part of who you are and I want and I know you know this and I want our readers to know that you're like this because you've worked on this and that's how you coach women to get there. But you know what you mentioned about the plane so many that's that's so many of us so many of us don't want to rock the boat to the extent where we'll rather we'll just go down you know do you know she's also very much on LinkedIn I love her Rachel Honeyman she's a whole branding strategist she's wonderful but I interviewed her before because she also does for women specifically she teaches a self-defense course to women because and she said, you know, we're so trained to be nice that even if we are grossly uncomfortable and someone is coming into our space and we're afraid that they're going to hurt us, we're still being polite, right?
We're still we're still being nice even when our lives are at risk. And so maybe working with you is one of these ways out of it. And I wanted to say what are some of the ways people can work with you? So beside and I coaching is your your ultimate but what are some starter ways besides your book? You've got a free master class as well, right?
Yeah. Yeah, I've got a free master class. There's the book. of course I go to organizations and I speak and stuff so you know people can hear me speak that way. but yeah, and then there's a coaching.
The coaching I had different levels as well. So Oh, do you? Yeah, I have different levels of the coaching. Yes. So there's the if you like there's a premium, a standard, and a basic, shall we say?
Okay. Yeah. So there different levels of the coaching. Yeah. And is part of your coaching getting people through I mean obviously it's understanding these boundaries and doing all these things, but the I to me I would imagine that the ultimate goal would be able to like you said the assignment is to have these tough conversations.
I mean, they're tough for a reason. And so, I think that's an incredible assignment. And I'm curious what people come back to you and say after they've had them, if they come back or they just run away. They do. No, no, they have.
So, this is what we do. So, you they have to choose the difficult conversation they're going to have, right? So, before that, we would have done all the communication, the assertiveness, and all that before we get to that part. and then they choose. And then I don't just let them go and have the conversation trembling.
No, we do a lot of prep. We they go in with a script. Yes. Yes. Wow.
Yes. So I work with them on the script. So whatever the issue is, we come up with a script that they're going to deliver, right? and then we work on the whole setup and stuff and then they go and deliver the script and then they come back with the outcome, right? And then sometimes we have to do a doover with the outcome.
Okay. Right. To go and re come at it from the side or sometimes they go and they kind of lose their nerve and then you know but in terms of that difficult it's the same. It's like I had one woman she was going to ask for a pay rise and you know it's her difficult conversation. " Right.
Right. Wow. Right. It is not what your dad says. So, you know, I'm the one with the script here.
So, this is what we're going to do. Right. And it was interesting because I actually even wrote about that on LinkedIn. So, I was traveling then, dodgy Wi-Fi and she phoned. and she was freaking out in tears and she didn't want to do it.
And I'm like, you're going to do it. And yeah, repeat after me. Here's the script. What are you going to say? Blah blah.
And because she had got herself in a space where she thought they wouldn't give her the pay rise. And it even wasn't what she wanted to do was not work a 5 day week. She wanted to work a 4 day week, but be paid the same money. So in effect, it was about a 20% pay rise. Do you know what I mean?
and so actually they've never given a 20% to anybody before and all these all these excuses and I'm like so and also what you're asking for actually to them it's not really a cash flow issue because it's the same money you're just working for days so you will be surprised you know and she had got she was convinced they weren't going to give it to I'm like go ask and that is so they have the rights I give them the whole the rights and one of your rights is you have a right to ask. That's one of your rights. You have a right to ask. And the other person also has a right to say no. Do you know?
And so, so long as you understand that, it flips the other way. So, so you know, somebody will ask you something and you know, how dare they ask me when you stop doing that because they have a right to ask. But then it's up to you for you to grow your backbone and your spine to say no. All right? So, it works with so you have a right to ask.
They have a right to say no. And so, you know, do not deprive yourself of that right to ask. And for all you know, if you, you know, stiffen up your spine and ask, you might just get it. And guess what? She got it.
So, yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's a great That's a great And I am I've just loved talking to you today. If we're gonna I'm gonna let you go because I'm going over our time and I don't want to make you spend the entire day with me despite the fact that I have 50 million more questions.
But if we could if for the women who are listening, for the woman who's listening, nodding along but doesn't know where to start, what's one shift she can make today that you think would just change something to start her off? One thing somebody could do? But the one thing is do not do not and I repeat that do not put yourself last cuz that's what we do. We're going to serve everybody and we put ourselves last. So at every time it's like where am I in this?
Where am I? Because I always encourage you when put yourself in the center. That's where you have to be as well. You have to be in the center, not to the side or anything. So do not put yourself last.
And you cannot pour from an empty cup. No. So you owe it to yourself to fill your cup. And if you can get these two things in your head, then when you're trying to pour from an empty cup, you understand you're doing the people a disservice because what you're pouring is empty. Gifty, you are a wealth of knowledge and I cannot thank you enough.
I'm going to have all the links to your book, your master class, your coaching, your TED talks, everything in our show notes. So, if anybody is interested in contacting Gifty, I'll put your LinkedIn contact as well. So, she'll be right on there. but thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Oh, it was thrilling. Seriously, thank you. A huge thank you to Gifty Enright for joining me today and for such an honest, grounded conversation about what it really means to find balance and reclaim your power. We'll be back next week with Jennifer Hinchi, founder of Fertile, for a conversation about innovation, persistence, and the power of women creating their own solutions. Until then, thanks for listening.
We'll see you next week on Roar.
Comments