She Helps Women Get Paid to Speak, and It's Working: Jess Ekstrom
What happens when frustration becomes a lifelong operating system?
Danielle Davies sits down with Jess Ekstrom, an entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of both Headbands of Hope and Mic Drop Workshop, for a conversation that is equal parts practical, personal, and unexpectedly profound.
What begins with a childhood camping trip and a tangled Walkman cord quickly expands into a wide-ranging discussion about advocacy, economic empowerment, ambition, legacy, and what it really means for a woman to build something without losing yourself in the process.
This one goes places you might not expect.
What You'll Hear in This Episode
• Why Jess's dad's response to a frustrated middle-schooler became the foundation for everything she's built
• How Jess ended up being the first woman to speak at a conference that had been running for 15 years, and why that's not a compliment
• The moment she asked an event organizer why they booked her, and what his honest answer revealed about the speaking industry
• Why women second-guess their place on stage while men confidently ask for $50,000, and what's actually behind that gap
• Danielle's own experience taking Jess's free course and landing a $2,500 paid speaking gig almost immediately after
• Jess's philosophy on over-delivering vs. gatekeeping, and why she pushed back on advice to hold more back
• The Bernie Madoff connection in Jess's family, and how that trauma quietly turbocharged her hustle
• What happened when Jess accidentally signed up for a death-and-dying silent retreat in Asheville, and how it reframed her entire relationship with ambition
• The shift from checklists to legacy: how Jess thinks about building things that outlive her goals
• Practical speaking tips: the 'spotlight to lighthouse' mindset shift, the 'start button' technique, and why being relatable is your competitive edge in the age of AI
• The 'contribution vs. completion' framework from her upcoming book, and why most of us are exhausted because we keep chasing 'done'
• Her upcoming book "Making It Without Losing It" ambition, peace, and what success actually looks like when both are allowed to coexist
Practical Speaking Tips from Jess
Jess offers two concrete techniques for anyone preparing to get on stage:
1. The Spotlight-to-Lighthouse Shift
Stop thinking about how you look on stage and start asking: what does this audience need? What keeps them up at night? What did they eat for lunch? "These are humans" — when you make the talk about them, the nerves change.
2. The Start Button
Your first story on stage is not where you open with your most vulnerable moment. Pick something funny, relatable, or light — a childhood story works well. It's an icebreaker for the audience, but really, it's an icebreaker for you. Once you get through your first 60-90 seconds and feel the room respond, everything shifts.
Links and Resources
Jess's new book, available TODAY!
The FREEBIE Class that Danielle took that TOTALLY WORKED:
Other Roar episodes you may enjoy!
Our interview with novelist Katherine Center:
Our interview with visibility powerhouse Cheldin Barlatt Rumer:
Listen to ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture & Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. New conversations every Tuesday.
Full Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and lightly cleaned up. It may contain small errors.
things in our life don't have finish lines. You know, building a business, creating a culture, raising kids, like all the kind of really good things in life don't have finish lines. And so instead of like training our brains to be like and complete, you know, where's my medal? It's like what if contribution was the goal instead of completion? That was Jess and this is Roar.
Hi everybody. This is Danielle Davies, the host of Roar. Today I'm joined by Jess Extramm, social entrepreneur, best-selling author, and founder of both Headbands of Hope and The Mic Drop Workshop. Jess is someone who turns frustration into momentum. Whether that's building a company that's reached children's hospitals around the world or creating a platform that helps women step onto stages, publish their ideas, and get paid for sharing their stories.
And that last piece really matters because advocacy doesn't only happen in policy rooms. Sometimes it happens when women claim space, redefine authority, and decide their voice belongs in the spotlight. Through Mic Drop Workshop, Jess is working to shift who gets heard. In an industry where women are still vastly underrepresented as keynote speakers and thought leaders and with her upcoming book, Making It Without Losing It, she's asking a deeper question. What does success look like when ambition and peace are allowed to exist at the same time?
Jazz, thanks so much for being here. Welcome to Roar. Oh my gosh, what a great intro. Thank you, Danielle. I'm so excited to be here.
Stop at the intros and just be like, there they are. Like, go look them up, you know? No, no, you're fantastic. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
I'm so excited. And I'm going to jump right in because I know we've got limited time even though an hour shouldn't really be limited, but you use the term inspiration from frustration. What was the first frustration that really changed your trajectory? the moment you realized you're not just solving something for you, you're building something that could help other women or girls, too. You know, I would say from a young age, you I remember even just like this camping trip that I took with my dad when I was a kid and I'm really aging myself when I say I brought my Walkman like you know.
Totally. Totally. And I was listen I remember I was listening to the Backstreet Boys, still a Backstreet fan. And I can't believe they're still touring by the way, right? And my headphone cords kept getting tangled in this knot in my Walkman.
And I was getting so frustrated and I said and my dad had recently started his company. I was in middle school and so I was kind of watching him build something that he believed in. And I was like, "Dad, you know, I'm going to invent something like you did. " And I remember he was so serious and he's a very goofy guy and he sat me down and he was like, you know, that's already been invented, but I really want you to keep thinking that way. Like that was a great job of being frustrated about something and thinking how could this be better.
And so I think that was kind of this shift for me. Not like I'm going to be an entrepreneur, but I believe in myself enough to solve problems. So, I think that's why I'm also so passionate about kids starting their ideas, whether their only customer is their mom or their neighbor or being a lemonade stand kid. It's like you learn so much from just taking responsibility of like, oh, I don't like the way that you know, we take attendance at school. What if it was this way?
And that like muscle memory of instead of why me, but how can I fix this started on that camping trip? And I think it's just kind of continued from there. And what great like what excellent feedback from your dad because so many I hate to say but I feel like so many parents so many people would just be like that's already invented and stop without doing the next part which is like how clever of you. How entrepreneuristic of you, how innovative of you to think this way and then to kind of keep it going. Yeah.
And yeah, shout out to dad if you're listening. And I have, you know, two kids of my own now. You know, they're one and three. You're probably going to hear them on this podcast, so they're both homesick from school, so it is let's just hope we don't hear any bodily fluids. It's just like Peppa Pig out there.
but I'm thinking a lot about like how I was raised now that I, you know, have my own kids and I'm like, you know, they, my parents never forced like do good, do this, you know, start your business. But they just like gently showed me like the ex exits I could take on the highway. Like, oh yeah, if you want to start something, here's go for it. Here's how you do it. but it was never and of course they like started their own business and so I got to watch them but you know it's so hard business by the way.
Sorry. So they were yeah they were in the health and fitness industry and they created like an email marketing thing where gyms send out emails based on how often they came to the gym. And this was in the '9s. So this was like a huge Yeah. like very and both I'm like I laugh.
I'm like they can't even like open up a word document yet they created this tech company. I'm like how did you guys do this? It just goes to show you don't have to be an expert to you know be an entrepreneur. but yeah, I'm thinking a lot about that with my kids of like how I guide them instead of push them. because I think that's what they did for me.
I love that. And it's funny because now I'm going off on a tangent, but I do my daughter's 17 and my son's 20 and he's always known what he wanted to do and that's been what he wants to do. But my daughter's much more like creative and not that he's not. He's just been goal driven from the beginning and she's like a little more aimless. And that's okay.
She's super creative. But in terms of like saying these are the exit ramps, I'll say these are the exit ramps. And she just jokes like she'll be like everything with you. " Start. And she now it's like she's like, "Stop.
Stop saying it. " So it's it's such a your dad must have done it in just the right way where it wasn't pushing it, but just opening the door. Tell you, Danielle, my sister and I are the same as what you're how you're explaining your kids. But we actually did have kind of a freaky Friday where I was kind of aimless. She was very goal- driven and then I don't know we collided like in college and we I became very goal driven and she was just like the world is my oyster and I literally was having this conversation this morning because she lives in California.
She's like an a nature guide. I mean she works for a land trust. She is like one with the earth and she sends we use this app called Marco Polo where she sends videos. I love it. and so she'll send videos to my kids that they can watch.
And she sends these videos of like a plant in the Oh, Ellie, Jack, look at this flower. What do you What colors do you see? And I'm like, Heather, you could be Miss Rachel for outdoors. Like, you could have a YouTube channel that is like outdoor kids stuff. We could monetize it.
Like could be sponsored by REI. Like, here we go. and she's like, "Jess, I am just sending videos to my niece and nephew. " And even as an employer, you know, I'm right now it's the beginning of the year. I know this is going to come out later, but I'm having calls with everyone on my team just kind of trying to understand where they want to go from their role.
And some people are like, "I just really like where I am. I don't want to be the director. Like, I don't want to do this, you know? I'm really good where I'm at. And so, I think sometimes someone who is so addicted to ambition, which is again a part of my book, it's hard for me to not be like a pusher of ambition to other people.
And if anything, I feel like I can learn from my sister and some of these other people who are like, I'm really enjoying this spot right now. Why do why would I want to mess with the good vibes if you know what I mean? Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
It is a foreign concept to me as well just because you're like I don't know. I've always juggled multiple things and you're that's kind of what keeps me going. I don't know what I would do if I was just not but that's also my personality and not everybody else's. So, but also what you do, by the way, like the fact that both of the kind of the ways that you've chosen to be an entrepreneur have actually been helping people. So, that's another part.
So, when I started ROAR, part of it was because, you know, I have been in I've worked in politics and I've worked in as a journalist and a lot of times when people are like, get involved, do something, they often think or like, well, I can't run for office like I don't want to run for office and I that's not what I want to do. But advocacy for women and girls doesn't have to look like running for office or holding up a sign. And I think that your work shows it can be building platforms, opening doors, shifting who gets heard. Did you ever start seeing, you know, voice and visibility as a form of ad advocacy? It is such a timely question because I have been you know there's a lot going on in the world right now and so much and so of course you ask yourself 30 years from now when we look back on this time or 10 years or 5 years what do I want to tell my kids that I did you know and I think about that question every day and I will also tell you that I'm not the kind person who I saw this video recently that was like everyone protests differently.
Sometimes people protest through making art. Sometimes people protest by where they shop. Sometimes people protest by like holding the signs and marching in the streets. And sometimes the protests that are so visible like the holding the signs or maybe being you know is feels like it's the only way. because it's so visible.
And so I've been really kind of battling. I'm like I just I'm not at, you know, holding the signs right now, but I truly believe that the businesses and the systems that I'm putting in place are there for the betterment of women, which is my form of advocacy. but I think I had to have a little bit of a gut check with myself of like, am, you know, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, am I feeling like I, you know, left it all in the field for what I believe in? And my answer right now is yes. " Does that resonate with you?
100%. And I'm glad you see it for yourself, too, because as somebody who's been on the receiving end of what you do, and we'll talk about that later. it's I do see it as a form of advocacy myself. So, I don't think it's I don't think it's going on deaf ears. I mean, obviously, you have to, you know, that's something you have to look at yourself.
And like you said, in 10 years, 20 years, am I going to look back and feel like I guess met this moment? But I think you are. And it's again and I think it's really important that we all start to see that it doesn't look the same for everybody and how we advocate doesn't doesn't look the same that you're not doing something you're doing another thing and I think that's just import as important in fact one of the things I wanted to talk about too is you tell the story you at least did in one of your courses that I took women report being the only woman on the panel or being underpaid for their keynote work but you pulled back the curtain and you asked somebody why you why they picked you, which I think is a really brave question to begin with. I know I was young. Yes, that was smart of you.
But what surprised you most when you started pulling back the curtain on this? " And I was like, "I get it. " And that was when I was like, oh, there is something happening here where there is this demand for women speakers on this stage. And it's really it's and it was so frustrating to me because and it's still so frustrating to me. There are so many events that come to us.
We're now kind of becoming the go-to place for events to find women speakers. So, we train them and people can find them. " And I'm like, "They're there. They're we're all here, but maybe we're just not being as forthcoming or as loud or which is also on us. " Quick pause because if you're listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind of person I write for.
I send out a Substack newsletter where I go a little deeper, more personal stories, behind the scenes thoughts, and honestly, some of the things we don't always say out loud here. com. I'd love to have you there. And now back to your regularly scheduled podcast. you're actually reminding me years ago again this is political but I talked to Senator Tammy Duckworth and she maybe doesn't remember this but we were talking about the fact that like she knows men you know or she's come across men who basically you know they grow up and they look in the mirror and they're like I think I'd be a really good congressman you know like you know and then like but like a lot of times women how they come to it and this is generalizing obviously this is not every man and everything but like a lot of times women it's like you come to it because you're like frustrated that your kids are waiting outside by from the bus like for the bus and so you're talking about the bus routes and you know like even Senator Patty Murray she in Washington that's how she started she was basically like somebody actually said you know you're just a mom in tennis shoes but it starts as just this moment where you're like you're fixing something you don't necessarily see yourself as the one compelling $50,000 on a stage but you actually help women not just tell but also sell their story.
So what do you think shifts when a woman stops seeing her story as personal and starts seeing it as like professional capital? Because I think that's the thing I think we all sit around and we talk and we have stories but do you see that what do you see happening to a woman when she starts to realize those stories might have monetary value? Yeah. And I think that's such we're, you know, I saw a mic drop in like 2018 and I'm like I want to this year we've hired a lot you know more team members which is amazing but I'm like this isn't just me in my basement anymore. I really want to get clear on like our values and our what we stand for and there's a lot of public speaking, storytelling, soft skills, which is great, but like we are very clear on speaking for pay.
and because that's where I know that I've see that's changed my life a ton and something I didn't know existed and where I see the most gap. but it goes back to I want to get to speaking for pay, but something that you said around like being able to see yourself there. I mean, it just goes back to when we were a kid and like learning the presidents and looking at the wall. And I remember like my kindergarten classroom had all the president's faces. And so you just subconsciously start to assume, well, I don't look like that, so that can't be me.
And so like with public speaking and anytime there's these like positions of power or the ability to hold a microphone, of course the pay you deserve to get paid, but it's also just this systemic ripple effect of being able to see people like them on stage. I was we had our one of the programs we do is called Mic Drop Academy and we had our kickoff call last night where we do a cohort of 30 women and they're all women who are already speaking in some capacity and looking to make it maybe more their full-time job. And this woman was like I was told that I was she spoke at this healthcare conference that they were she was the first Asian woman that they've ever had speak. And it's just crazy that we're in 2026 and there's still like firsts. I spoke at a conference in December that said they've been doing this conference for 15 years and I was the first woman.
Oh, and Danielle, I know. I see your face right now. It happens all the time. " I just assumed it was a given. Like, of course there would be a female president.
Of course there. And now I'm like 51. I'm like, is there going to be a female president? How in my lifetime am I going to get to see this? It's like it's just crazy that you're telling me this happened in December and you've been a professional speaker for how long?
And the I say funny with air quotes. Anyone who's listening, the funny part is that they presented that information to me as such a source of pride. Like, you're our first female speaker. I'm like, that is not a point of pride if you've been doing this conference for 15 years. So yeah, all of that to say, yes, the pay, which I'm happy to kind of get into what that looks like as a as a speaker, but I think more than anything, the representation of seeing a woman hold a microphone in front of a room full of people, whether that's three people or 3,000, deeply matters right now.
And so I have a lot of guilt around leaving my house, you know, with a one and a three-year-old, but I really am trying to show my kids what I'm doing. And, you know, my kids are obsessed with Miss Rachel. And so I'm like, you know how Miss Rachel like teaches, you know, language. Like I'm going up there and teaching adults like how to you know, care about the world and care about their job. And this is me teaching.
and I spoke in Orlando a couple months ago and brought my daughter to watch me. And so I think the I want my kids to see me trying and even if I'm failing, which I do quite a bit, but that matters to me that they see their mom like taking big swings. Well, because that's also, you know, that's that's also advocacy, right? Like you want the world to be better. It's going to start in your house.
You want the best for your own kids obviously and for them to learn and I have to say as like somebody who felt that way and continues to feel that way. My kids are now 20 and 17 and like every you know sometimes you're my husband's like do they listen to a thing that we say? Like must they learn everything the hard way? But I'll hear them having conversations with their friends where it's like I can hear my words coming back out of their mouths almost verbatim like and I'm like they are getting it. are seeing it and it and it is important you know I think these things are important but also like you said seeing a woman from other women seeing a woman speaker it is empowering for us but it also shows that it's possible why do you think this economic empowerment is such a important part of amplifying women's voices because you're not just saying you can go get on a stage you're actually saying you can get paid for it and I'm just going to say right now what we already talked about so I people listening I took this free course that Jess offers, which I highly recommend, and it will be in the show notes, and it's awesome, and somebody sent it to me, and like every free course you've ever taken, you anticipate that there might be a little bit of value, but really, it's going to be a sales tool, right?
It's a it's a lead magnet, and that's great. I mean, they have their value, but no, no, it was not like that at all. It was like its own thing. It was the only thing actually. I have taken other courses from Jess, but not from this.
Just I just took this. I did exactly what she said. It was like a h how long is it? Half an hour, 45 minutes. Yeah, not long.
I did exactly what she said. This is like within an hour. I applied to five speaking gigs, which I really was doing for practice. I wasn't even doing them because I didn't think it was going to work that fast and I was not really prepared. I should probably not be saying this out loud, but No, you're good.
The point is, well, I mean, the people who booked me might not love it, but Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's too late. Anyway, the contract is signed.
That's what editing's for. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And basically, I ended up like almost immediately with a paid speaking gig that's coming up.
And of course, I'm equal parts excited and terrified, but that's how effective and also how much the need is. Thank you. For women. I mean, that just shows and it was like very tactical, very practical, tactical. I made like my speaking sheet.
I did everything that she showed that you showed in this video. I literally just listened to word for word. I saw I followed the same hashtags you said. I mean, there was nothing that I did that was independent of what you suggested. There was no like, well, she said this, but I took it up a notch.
There was no taking it up a notch. I did exactly that. And the speaking gig that I b that I booked was not like for $100 or $200. It was a $2,500 speaking gig in another state. I talked for one hour.
Anyway, you're going to crush it. Yeah. And I let me also say, Danielle, that I appreciate the credit you're giving me, but there are so many people that take a training and then put it on their like mental bookshelf and never do anything about it. So, the fact that you not only took it but applied it is like kudos to you. And I'll tell you something funny.
As you were talking, it reminded me of this. you know, I started obviously mic drop workshop cuz I was really tired of all male pale and stale lineups as we like to say. And so I started doing these like free seminars and then of course we have a paid training and I had hired this like consultant or something years ago just to see like what could we be doing to like get to the next level and they told me, "Oh, you're delivering too much information like on the upfront like on the free side. You need to like what's the word the kids say? gatekeep, you know, and say, you know, that's in the paid thing.
And I was like, no, that doesn't align with my mission. I want someone to be able to like be able to start this and land something that's accessible to everyone. Because I think that's also the problem we have with people holding microphones is that they're already in the positions of power that allow that are they're already in the room. And so like my goal is to help people who might not already have those invites get the invites. And if so if it was totally inaccessible then I wouldn't be fulfilling that.
And but it was just so funny to me because that advice was like, you know, we kind of I kind of deliver too much good stuff and too many kind of hacks for free. And I was like, I'd rather overd deliver than not. And I think that's kind of been one of the successes of Mic Drop Workshop and how we've been able to grow so much over the past few years is the trust I'm able to build on the front end. And I always tell people like whenever we get to the point that they can decide if they want to like come into a paid program or not, I'm like, you can do this with or without me. Like, but if you want to get there like quicker with a community with more resources, then join us, but don't let this be like, do I do this or do I not, do it with or without me.
It's just whichever path you want to take. and so when you were saying that, like it just was making me think of that advice I got that one time that I was overd delivering and I was like, I think I'm okay with that. I'm good with overd delivering. Yeah. And honestly, I mean, it's it because then you've got that then you've got word of mouth and there's really just nothing better.
I mean, I cannot tell you how many times I've been like I mean, I'm like sending it to people I know. I'm like remember because Okay, let me back up. I've spoken at different things for different reasons whether politically or I was like class president when I was in high school. I mean, there's people who end up speaking about things and there's people who don't. 0 conference and one of the pullout sessions was about the fact that you could get paid to speak.
And the people were really helpful and wonderful. In fact, one of them who isn't she's a teacher and she writes about teaching and so sometimes she speaks about what she writes about. Obviously, this is how a lot of times speakers become speakers, right? they're talking about their area of expertise and she was really helpful and forthright and she was like listen you can actually get paid for this people like the women in the room are all like get out you know that's how I felt yeah she was like she met a woman and she's like I'm here speaking for free because this is the kind of event that yeah it really aligned with her it was local for her it was meaningful fine that's fine And that's its own issue whether or not you want to do that or not. but she said that she knew another author that was like sitting down a booth from her at like an author's convention and that author was like and she's like I never heard of her.
It was like a self-published book. It you know this is back in the times when self-published books weren't maybe what they are now. And she said the woman was like I don't speak anywhere for less than $10,000. And this woman was like huh? Like yeah.
But that woman, she's like, she was totally booked. Like it is the $10,000 one was booked. Yeah. Yeah. She was booked and so that was very eyeopening hearing that, but there was no and of course there was no one there who was doing what you're doing, right?
There was no guide. So I knew it was possible, but I had absolutely no idea how to make that a thing. You know what I mean? Like I didn't know what the steps were from my knowledge to making it happen. but I had talked about it with different friends of mine over the years who are very either dynamic or have a great story to tell.
" Apparently people do this. Yes. What was it for you, Danielle? Like after you took the training, like what was the light bulb for you? Was it topic?
" And what were some of the steps you took? It was the accessibility and it was the fact that so for me who had thought about it in the past and I already kind of was like I could do this I mean with medication. Yes. I want to talk about that too cuz I'm kind of fascinated by beta blockers. I'm I'm an anxious person and the thought of it is making me Yeah.
inside. I mean my Lexapro is on overdrive right now. So yeah. Okay. So, so I'm I'm definitely anxious about it, but the practical steps for this is what you do, this is what you look for, this is who you approach.
Yeah. That the I mean, and you actually tell people this for free, which makes which is why I was saying now I've told every single one of those people. " So I you know I know from I know it works because I did it myself like I did exactly what you said and it worked and about the medication I did. Yeah. Tell me where like when you get nervous where what's the thought process that's going through your head?
Where are you nervous? I get nervous and then I get I get to the point Oh whoa. This is a whole I mean we should have a psychotherapist on here too. Yeah. When I get anxious, I get anxious about the fact that I'm getting anxious.
So, I'll be like, "It's happening. It's happening. " Yes, I know. You can feel your body start to like warm up in these uncomfortable ways. And then I'm like, I'll I, you know, I can see my hand the older I get, like I can see my fingers start to shake.
Like, I'll be like, "Oh, you know," and it's internal. So all I'm thinking about is the fact that I'm anxious and so I'm not going to be able to be my best and then it just keeps building. So I did obviously you know everything's listening. as soon as I took this I started seeing things that were popping up on different social media feeds. You can take beta blockers to be a speaker.
So I spoke to my doctor about it. and he was like yes. He's like or you could just practice. And I'm like I'll take the beta blocker. Yeah.
Who has time for that? I was like, I'll take the beta blocker and the drugs. Yeah. Cuz he was like, well, it's not, you know, all the time. I'm like, I don't want to take it all.
Do you think I'm speaking in my sleep? Like, I just want to do this. I think anything that allows you to like just do it is great, but can I give you some tips, please? Okay. So, a couple things like when I see people get nervous around speaking that and this is like I'm getting nervous just as you're talking about it.
It's starting to happen. Oh my god. this and actually so I gave my TED talk last year and it was such a good thing for me because I was so petrified. It was such a different kind of speaking environment than going up and giving a keynote giving this like very heightened 8-minute talk. that's kind of more scripted.
Oh, thank you. But it was it really allowed me to get back into the shoes of like doing this for the first time and so I could kind of go through the process of what to do when you're nervous. the first thing I'll tell you what the for anyone listening the TED talk was about like this shift that you can take when you're feeling nervous. And I call it the difference between being a spotlight speaker and a lighthouse speaker. spotlight speaker comes up on stage and is like, "What is everyone thinking?
How do I look? How do I sound? " Like, you know, can they see my finger shaking? I want to be impressive. And it's giving all the control to the audience.
" The spotlight is on you. But a lighthouse shifts the light from themselves to the audience. " It's what does everyone need of me? Like where are they at? How can I help?
And so it's just this I literally imagine and this sounds very like hakuna matata but like when I'm backstage I literally imagine the light like taking it off myself and putting it on the audience and it's this visualization I do that's like what did they have for lunch today? What is their fear? Like do they have you know kids at home? like what? And anytime I speak, that's why I always like to have the a call before cuz I'm like, tell me what keeps your people up at night.
Even if I'm not I'm not a magician. I might not be able to solve it. At least I have context going into the room that these are humans. They're maybe worried about layoffs. Maybe they got a new CEO, whatever it might be.
So that first shift is like just where what are you making this mean? Are you making it mean something about yourself? If so, you're going to be petrified. or is it about the audience? the second thing that I like to suggest if you get nervous is I call it your start button when you speak and it's that first line, that first story you're going to tell on stage.
It is it can be like if you're going out there with a super vulnerable story, I would be I don't know if you can like curse on this show. Can we curse? Okay. I would be like my pants if I was about to go out there and say about like a time that, you know, my grandpa died or like something that was super vulnerable because you're literally just like going down the black diamond without any kind of emotional warm-up for yourself or the for the audience. And so instead, I start with a story that is maybe funny, maybe relatable.
I think a childhood story is always great. I talk about the time where ice cream. The ice cream. Yeah. For my TED talk, I talked about the ice cream truck in my keynote now.
I talk about a time where I thought I was going to get, you know, M&M's on this Outward Bound trip and I didn't. And it's like the start button is an icebreaker for the audience. It gets them relaxed. But truly, it's an icebreaker for you because once you can deliver like your first 30 seconds, 2 minutes on stage, I guarantee it's going to you're going to feel your shoulders come down. You're going to get a couple laughs or head nods from the audience and your whole being on stage is going to change.
But if that first story is super heightened, very vulnerable, one that you're not super comfortable telling, it's just going to amplify those nerves. So, I would start thinking about what's your start button. What's like that story that is an icebreaker for the audience and for you because it's going to make it's just like stretching before you go out there. It's just like getting out all your kinks and there's a lot of physical stuff you could do too. Good.
Oh, good. Good. So, good. Because even as you're saying it, I'm calming down like Yeah. I should just bring you with me everywhere I go.
I just I'm like Yes. And even when you said, you know, when you said the shift from the spotlight or Yeah. from the spotlight to the lighthouse, right? Yeah. Right.
That's when you say it, I'm like, okay. Like theoretically, I get it. But when you said like what is keeping them up at night? What did they eat for lunch? Then you're like, oh, like it's relatable.
Are humans and yes, that works. This works. And you also when you think about the talks that you loved like I didn't what be like wow that person was perfect or I didn't say wow that person didn't use a filler word. I don't know who made the villain but it's who cares use it's usually wow they were so real. They turned it back on something that I could apply.
They told a story and I think there's this like misconception with speaking that being relatable makes you unreliable. And I think that is such a myth that we need to debunk. If anything, like we have this chat GBT perfection now of like exactly what to say and here's the research that it makes us need to be more human. Like that's our competitive edge as speakers is being relatable in the stories that we tell. So, I would say like just almost like this is probably not the advice a speaking coach should say, but like lower the bar for yourself.
like you don't need to go out there and be a Mel Robbins or whoever. don't compare your like chapter 1 to their chapter 20. And recognize that just like people need real, relatable, and applicable. And like that's how you can be a great speaker, not by being perfect. Okay, real quick.
If you're listening and thinking more women should be hearing conversations like this, the best way to support the show is just to follow or subscribe wherever you are. It really does help it reach more people. Thanks so much. Okay, back to the show. You are very good.
You are very good and I really appreciate it. But I want to also point out to people who are listening who maybe don't know your whole thing like the mic drop workshop is awesome and I am aspiring to do it and I think it's going to be great and I love what you do but that's not all you do. You also have written books. So a lot of times people who speak who you know I'm talking to the audience here because you already know this. A lot of times people who speak on an area that they've already written about right?
So they maybe they're an educator, that was an example I used before, and they speak about education. Or maybe they've run for office, so they talk about public office or the economy or whatever their area of expertise is, they go and speak. Yours, what you do is sort of I feel like you almost train women to do the opposite. It's not necessarily their area of expertise. It's it's being human as the area of backtracking it.
And that's kind of what you almost seem to do in your books. You're not in your books. They're not books about how to be a public speaker. That's not what you've got. So, you've got a book.
They probably should be. That would be a better business strategy, but I get too bored. I'm like, yeah, I want to write about something that But I love that about you, though. And I because I feel like it's again offering something honest and so much more relatable. And your book, you've got a book coming out called Making It Without Losing It, right?
Which I think is awesome. And it seems like it, of course, I haven't read it. It's not out yet, but it seems like it's a response to hustle culture. Yes. Was there a moment when you realiz the way it's kind of being sold to us?
And I even just what you said, you know, when you compare yourself to your first talk versus like Mel Robbins 400, like that's what we do as humans and women. I'm sure men do it too. " Well, they didn't start there, you know? So can you talk about what happened to inspire you to even start this book? I think and this goes back to the beginning of our conversation.
I felt like, you know, I started my first company when I was in college. I was like I felt like I was just trying to fill a leaky bucket that like I just can dump more water in here and it's going to be full and one day I'm going to feel it. And it's like it just wasn't happening. and I get, you know, into this in the book, but I there was a, I'll just say it here, but my uncle's Bernie made off, and so we had like a very kind of traumatic, scandalous chapter of our lives. Yes.
my god, really? Yes. Okay. And so when I talked about that freaky Friday with my sister, I that was like kind of the catalyst where I was like, I'm going to go after this just make something of myself. And so I felt like it activated this hustle that I didn't know how to gauge appropriately.
And I'm like, I'm just going to do something so big and so great that it's going to cover up everything that ever bad happened, you know, in my family. I'm very much, you know, paraphrasing, but and also really super small goal right there. Yeah. Like, of course, I'm just going to be able to retire my parents that lost all their money and I'm just going to, you know, do this all the at the age of, you know, 20 like no problem. and I and so I think that I just realized one day that I was constantly trading like productivity for peace.
Yet I was seeing people like I don't know like Serena Williams didn't need another grand slam yet she just loved playing tennis or you know these people who are making it like Oprah was a billionaire before she started like own network. She didn't need to start another network. She was good. But it's just these people who truly loved building and creating. And so they were coming at their goals from a place of inspiration instead of anxiety.
And that was really interesting to me. And so I started to kind of go on this like personal journey that I'm sharing in this book of like how can I continue to build and do things that I'm excited about without feeling like I'm behind without feeling like I'm you know trading productivity for peace or usually when we have a goal the feeling is I'm not there yet instead of oh this is an exciting you know path it's like I should be I this person is and So this whole journey of making it without losing it is like I'm not the kind of person that wants to just like go on a silent meditation retreat and just never do anything like again I enjoy and I did I tried that I write about it in the book but I like building things. I like being ambitious but I want to feel sane and inspired at the same time. So that's what this book is about. It's not coming from a place of an expert.
It's coming from a place of like here's what I discovered while I was doing this. Not to give anything away, but is it like for example with the speaking you just gave me actual like again tangible things I can do with the start button and like all that stuff. Is it do you offer those same kind of strategies tips? Yes. At the end of each chapter, we have a section called take it or leave it.
And it's something to try, something to leave, and then I think there's like something to say. And it's just like if you were going to take one thing away from this, like here's something to try, leave, and say. because I also I'm going to be totally honest and realize like I my brain has been personally victimized by like Tik Tok scrolling chatbt. And so I'm like, if I'm not someone who is like sitting down with a candle light, with a cup of tea, earmarking books, I need something that is quick that gets me if I need to like skip a page, what do I need to do here? So I wrote it with that kind of reader in mind because I also know my readers are people who are probably high achieving, don't have a lot of time, like tell me what I need to know.
So I wrote it with that person in mind. Yeah. Oh, I love it. I and what let me ask you a question. Having done all this work yourself and you and I love how you're like I tried it.
I tried the silent meditation. Every so often I'm like what I should do is go away for a weekend like a retreat and I'm like I will never do this. And that does sound lovely but I just can't. I just and let me tell you Danielle when I did it and one I mean it was it was great but it wasn't this like oh now all my problems are solved. I showed up, you know, I drove, it was in Asheville, and I just I didn't really read the fine print, which I've learned is a flaw of mine.
And I get there, and the theme of this retreat is death and dying. Oh, no. And I had no idea. And I was like, do I turn around? Like there were people like it was silent, but there was a guide and it was all around this idea of like one day we're all going to die.
And I was like I am not ready for this. But it was more so than the silent side the like talking about death and especially when it pertains to ambition. I was like oh for me ambition kind of shifted from a comparison proving myself culture to a legacy driven thing. Like once you know that like the clock is counting down whether you want it to or not, you don't know like when that clock is going to go to zero. And it seems very morbid.
And I realized on this retreat that we like definitely in like our American culture have like we don't talk about death and dying as much as we probably should and I'm included in that. " Like that's where my ambition comes from now is outliving my goals instead of like box checking them. Like what are some things that I'm going to put into place in my lifetime that might matter after I'm gone? Is it going to be that there's going to be more women in like speaking spots? more women published on shelves?
Is it going to be what I did for my kids? so that silent retreat like actually the death and dying part was more transformative accidentally even though I wanted to run away and hide because it shifted this ambition from like a checklist to a legacy. I love that. And I was going to say, you know, as somebody you've got your hands in a lot of different areas and because and even mic drop workshop like you one of the things that you offer is like a book bundle. So you help people with their book.
So it's not just the speaking, it's the it's the whole Danielle, I love that you know like our offerings. I'm like we need to get you on payroll. This is great. Yeah. I'll be listen totally different thing.
One time I used to have this car insurance in San Francisco. This is literally like 25 years ago and I got in a little accident and I had been had this other car insurance that was crappy and then I had this good car insurance and they like took care of it and I raved so much on the phone about them. I was like thank you like you're the best. They were like could we call you and you say that all again for I was like absolutely like when I like something it's such great quality. It's actually my resolution for this year is to do more acknowledgement.
I was like writing about it on LinkedIn. like I know how good it feels when someone acknowledges you just like you did to me and so I am like putting just more into acknowledgement and so that's so awesome. Well, you know what? Thank you for Thank you for acknowledging that. That's kind of what I'm trying to do with Roar.
Like that's, you know, like I feel like in many ways that's what I'm leaving for other women. Like I, you know, I don't have a lot of money. I'm not donating. I don't have a lot of time. this what I'm trying to do is uplift women by way of other women's stories and trying to shine a spotlight on what they're doing because you know it takes everybody.
It takes all of us and so thank you for what you're doing and I know we've we don't have a lot of time so let me just ask you I know I keep going on a tangent but I could talk to you all day. I want to do it. I'm like which one should I ask you cuz I only have one question left. Okay, I'm going to just go with this one. Oh, well, I you know what?
I'm making it up. Here we go. Because I want to know with as somebody who does have all these different things going on and we didn't even talk about the headbands, which is fine. The point is you've got a lot of things going on and you talk about how you want to leave a legacy and how this kind of shifted on the retreat and then also you've got the book. So, it's kind of making peace with the fact of like this ongoing ambition.
How do you and if you even have an answer for this, how do you like stop yourself from sitting, say you sit on the couch, you're done for the day, you're like you're sitting there with your husband or your kids or you know talking to your mom and you've done your stuff, you've gotten it done, but you're like but I did all the stuff today for mic drop workshop but I still have to do XYZ for the book and also there's this like how do you shift between your between your goals? Yeah. without just passing out. Yeah. I it's something I am deeply working on.
I think my thought process is like to move away from like completion being the goal and contribution being the goal. So it's like how did I contribute to these buckets instead of complete them. I am the kind of like inbox zero person or notifications zero person where I'm like I recognize like what the dopamine hit it does to my brain when I see like you have 20 unread messages. I'm like I need to do these right now versus my husband on his phone. It's like he has like 3,000 unread emails.
I'm like how what like our brains need to be studied. And so I have recognized I have this and again this was like kind of a catalyst for the book because I so deeply felt like I was just digging my claws to get to the bottom of the pile. Whether that was last load of laundry, you know, oh I got to get to the last email and then you hit refresh and it like comes back in again. it and it was this constant I like call it I'm like if I had a memoir I'd call it like hurry up and relax. I was like it's like it's like my life is like having road rage on the way to yoga.
It's like so counterintuitive. I'm like so deeply hurrying to get to peace and I'm like what if it was just this like continuous contribution instead of and knowing that there is no done like most things in our life don't have finish lines you know building a business creating a culture raising kids like all the kind of really good things in life don't have finish lines and so instead of like training our brains to be like and complete you know, where's my medal? It's like, what if contribution was the goal instead of completion? And so, I still pass out, I'll tell you, Danielle, but that helps me a little bit. How long did it take you to get there?
I It's like, again, probably a good It's ongoing. It's ongoing. I'm just like And I have days like yesterday was just kind of one of those days where I felt like just nothing was going the way that I needed it to. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, like that didn't work out. " And just knowing that it's like everything is going to eb and flow.
I'm going to have a shitty day one day, the next day is going to be better. But there is like no done. and so but the longer I hoped for done, like I sold, you know, my first company and thought that was going to be this like blissful, you know, everyone kind of dreams of an acquisition or not everyone but like and it just wasn't. And so it was just this like, oh, and then I wake up again and now it's like, now what? And so I've just been learning this lesson time and time again that if I keep chasing done, I'm just going to keep getting disappointed.
And so contribution is the goal over completion. I love this. Thank you. I think so many people need to hear it. You know, I my daughter just turned 17 and she just got her driver's license.
And as we're leading up to it, I'm thinking, "Oh my god, it's coming. I'm going to be done driving her to school. I'm going to be done. " And of course, it's it's done. " Exactly.
because these things that we want to be done aren't necessarily they're good things like you said, you know, they're so it's that's Thank you for this. I really appreciate all of your insights. Thank you for your honesty and your vulnerability in doing this because I think thank you for making it all very accessible to everyone. And can I just say something Danielle in the spirit of acknowledgement? I've done a lot of podcasts in my day and you are one of the best.
This interview has been so amazingly conversational but productive and it's such a gift to like not feel like I'm in an interview and so I don't know what your goals and dreams are with ROAR but I hope you like full steam ahead because you are very gifted at this. Thank you. I'm going to totally be texting you later. yes, thank you so much and Jess has to go and thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for being here. I loved this conversation with Jess Extramm, especially the way she reframed ambition, not as something we have to outrun or prove, but something we can actually shape in a way that still allows for peace. That idea of moving from completion to contribution really clicked for me. Next week, we're stepping into a very different kind of contribution, one that's rooted in creativity, storytelling, and the unexpected ways we find purpose. We're talking about what happens when you follow something seemingly small and it turns into something much bigger than you imagined with PA creator Beth Howard.
In the meantime, thanks for listening. Jess's book is officially out in the world today. Before you go grab a copy, please share this episode with a friend. That's how these conversations keep going. See you next week on Roar.
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