Why Women Are Misdiagnosed as Less Ambitious with Jingjin Liu
Updated: 2 minutes ago
What if the problem isn't your confidence, but the system measuring it?
In this episode of Roar, Danielle Davies sits down with investor, founder, and power strategist Jingjin Liu for a conversation that dismantles one of the most persistent myths women are handed: that success is simply a matter of confidence, effort, or doing everything right.
Jingjin moved from China to Germany at 16, learned German, and rose fast in the male-dominated commercial vehicle industry, championed by senior leaders who saw something in her. Not despite the system, but in many ways because of how she moved within it. That experience became the foundation for a much larger realization about how power actually works, who gets recognized, and why.
Together, Danielle and Jingjin unpack the invisible dynamics shaping whose ambition gets rewarded, and what women can actually do about it, starting today.
In This Episode
🔥 Why some women advance fast, and why it's not purely about merit
🎤 The apology habit: how women enter rooms already diminished
🧠 The word "just," and other language women use to shrink themselves
🌿 Invisible labor and the operational trap that keeps women stuck
📣 Why being the "workhorse" actually makes you invisible to your manager
👑 The critical shift from managing down to managing up
⚡ Tiny habits that compound—growing vs. shrinking
🏠 Why the glass ceiling starts at home, not in the office
💥 The 9-to-5 and 5-to-9 framework: how your home life shapes your professional power
🔑 How to approach your manager about a promotion without making it about you
❤️ Why self-respect is the foundation of everything — and why most women skip it
Key Moments from the Conversation
Jingjin opens with a story many women don't expect to hear: she rose quickly in one of Germany's most male-dominated industries, supported by old white men who saw her as a rising star. Her reflection on why—that she naturally operated with traits the system rewarded—sets up the episode's central argument: the workplace is still designed for men, and women who succeed often do so by conforming to its rules, not changing them.
One of the episode's most memorable moments comes early, when Jingjin points out that Danielle opened the conversation with an apology. She breaks down how women routinely prime their own failure before they've said a word—and how men simply don't.
Jingjin tells a real story about a colleague who wasn't stealing a woman's ideas, but translating them, because she wasn't getting to the point. It's a nuanced, honest look at workplace dynamics that resists easy villain narratives.
On managing up: Jingjin explains that the women most stuck at mid-management are spending 99% of their energy managing their team and their work—and zero percent managing their boss's needs. She gives a concrete, actionable framework for changing that, including exactly how to have the promotion conversation.
The conversation closes with Jingjin's core belief: that everything starts with self-respect. Not confidence. Not strategy. Self-respect—the decision to be loyal to yourself the way you are loyal to everyone else.
💥 Don’t Miss a Conversation
Listen to ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture & Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. New conversations every Tuesday.
Full Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and lightly cleaned up. It may contain small errors.
Majority of the women have no idea they are doing this. They're just doing they wonder okay why I'm so good. I'm so I'm the I'm I'm the you know the worker bee and I am so I do everything right what has been taught in school by parents by by the society. Why am I not rising? And that's why that was Jingjin Liu and this is Roar.
Hi everybody. This is Danielle Davies, the host of Roar. Today I'm joined by Jingjin Liu, whose work explores how women navigate power, visibility, and confidence inside systems that weren't built with them in mind. Drawing on years of global business leadership from founding the Elevate Group to investing in early stage companies and stepping onto the TED stage, Jingjin focuses on how structures shape whose ambition gets recognized and whose labor stays invisible. Her work aims to impact 5 million professional women, not by telling women to be more confident, but by questioning the structures that decide whose ambition gets recognized in the first place.
Today, we're talking about invisible labor, power design, and what actually changes and what doesn't when women stop playing by the rules that were never built for them. Jing, welcome to ROAR. Thank you so much for having me, Danielle. It's a pleasure. I'm thrilled to be here.
And for anybody who follows along on, you know, I mentioned this previously, but your LinkedIn page, there's been a lot of talk about LinkedIn not kind of being a friendly place for women at the moment or women not really breaking through the noise. You've been able to do that. you talk about power not just as visibility, but as design, the way systems are structured. When did you start noticing that women weren't just struggling individually but were being measured by systems that didn't account for the full scope of what they were carrying? I think this is a bigger question because for individual versus structurally right I think my first lift experience is starting in my own corporate career.
So I started my corporate career in a very male white male dominated domain which is commercial vehicle industry and in Germany and in my mid20s and I came to Germany when I was 16. So I was in the country from a very different system from China to white Germany in and then learned German for eight years and now step into my first role and then astonishingly made a very smooth, fast and stellar career in this industry. Right there you could have stopped. You could have been like that's it. It's amazing already.
It's it's funny because for me I'm it's still I still wonder what happened actually there because usually when I start like this when the only Asian you know the only woman and then I came in the industry the white man what the expectation or at least what you hear the majority will say you know the discrimination the you know the only and then the break glass ceiling all you know everything what you can count but I actually did not experience any of them at least I was not aware where so and then because I had I had all my sponsors were men. They actively championed me and they are all old white men. So I have a big love for old white men especially in I really have to say because there were no young binary women in the space. They were all decision makers were solely old white men. They saw me as a rising star.
They saw me as a somebody is different, somebody's willing, somebody is you know is ambitious is everything what you can describe by actually most of the women but what they saw me something's different and I figured out what's that different is much later to answer your question why not individual but structurally is that I acted like them not that I was aware but majority of my traits are like men because I for example I just to name a few just naturally it has nothing to do with oh how I break it's just I naturally have more male characters for example I don't like to in terms of business okay just come to the [ __ ] point this is what I very often when I sit with women they you know they they soften their language and they broadened their scope and just probably I'm sorry and all these I was like oh my god come to a point what do you want to say because until you say it I already fell asleep you know it's it's so you were already like this you already had these character traits like kind with you I kind of brought it with me I mean that's a deeper conversation why how it how I become who I become but all this kind of traits that men appreciate or that men naturally have which is how you win in the workplace because the workplace is still designed for men by men so if you are a woman but you act or your natural traits are more like a man the likelihood for you to succeed is just higher. So this is actually the moment where I recognized in in hindsight much later because I was telling women you know this are the ways that how you make you know how you make a stellar career and so on until I recognize oh most of the thing I say or how I say it how I behave this are like any man could have said it so well if you just get a average woman a average woman is a outstanding man I always say you know the the what she bring to the But just bec because it is so counterintuitive to the decision maker who are usually men they don't excel. Therefore it's a structural problem. If you see most of the women are great and ambitious are great in what they do but they just don't manage to go up. It has to be a structural problem.
I was going to say so it's a structural problem but also how much is there structure but also how much of that conditioning are women carrying with them before they even get to the workplace and you mentioned this is one of the things that maybe you had a little bit different you know your own conditioning or your own interactions in the workplace you seeing from other women that you've worked with oh just like a good example I mean cut this if this is not appropriate Okay. No, it's great. I love it. I think I think this is because this has got to be about you. This is a it's going to be about you because this is my I don't know 50s podcast or something.
And it's so interesting that how a female host I never had this with a male host. Well, start this conversation with without me saying anything. I'm sorry. I'm not so put up together today because I had a surgery or because it's a chaotic morning because of something. They apologize with no reason whatsoever.
At least from a from from your audience perspective, from your client or whoever you are talking to, you might feel that way, but the person you are talking to has no reference, no feeling, no anything about why you should apologize for anything until you said it. Then I start to pay attention. Okay. Is she not put together today? I don't think so.
But if she says so, okay. Okay. Now, starting from here, anything you say from now on, because you set up yourself already to fulfill. Anything you are not so put together, you're not so eloquent. " Because she said she has a chaotic morning.
So now moving from you to everybody else. This happens to lot of women in meeting context. they start to run a meeting for some reason because they might be nervous or they drop off their kids and something did not go as smooth. They come into the meeting already in a apologetic manner or come into a email with apologetic manner or something that they are already not enough for whatever reason you know you're already coming in I'm sorry because one two three and this is what I'm saying why I want to raise this because this is so common this happens to every woman from the junior brand manager to the CEO Oh, you know this I mean it will be less but I mean you are a very senior executive woman. You have done great things but the first thing what happened to you is that you just apologize for no reason.
And so when you speak to men tell me I'm just curious they come right on and they just it's just they're just going. They're totally fine. No apologies. No no confidence issues. But for apologies or for or for what I rarely see men, let's just take podcast or meeting whether they are the host or I am the host.
The men usually not I'm I'm generalizing. Yeah, of course the average man come in and say how is going what's up? I'm going to go right to it. These are the five questions I'm going to ask you. So you're going to answer and then there's going to be conversation style.
Are you good with it? I'll say okay let's kick off. You know, let's say in a podcast setting or in any meeting there's a they're gonna how are you? They don't really care. You say okay I'm good.
How are you? I'm good. Okay. So agenda of today one two three. You know I know I'm not saying that women should anyhow act like this.
But if let's say promotion visibility anything that associate to a corporate win are defined by persona or characters like this. Then you come in with your warms, connection and you know your what collaborative with everything that women are genuinely good at. You are set up for fail you know so the friction is just much higher for women. It is. And it's funny, you know, I don't even notice that what I did this morning, but I do notice that even in writing.
I've taken out over the years, I've noticed there's a lot of just I'm just doing this. And I'm like, I'm not just doing anything. So, I've I've eliminated it. But, it was something I had to notice that I probably took with me into my into my 30s. And I was like, this is awful.
And it's Oh, thank you. Okay. This back to one of the things that you talked to the next question is you come back to this idea that women are kind of misdiagnosed labeled as less ambitious or less ready when actually managing caregiving emotional labor or even in the workplace the invisible labor of smoothing over explaining holding things together. Where do you see that misdiagnosis happening most clearly right now? Oh, this is a very complicated question.
Take your time. Take your time. So, let me paraphrase. So, so, so structure versus conditioning where happens more or can you can you phrase the question? I think I think the question is a bit so complicated.
You're right. And so, well, because I think it's, you know, we're a lot of times, one of the things you wrote about, and maybe this isn't exactly applicable, but it's the first one that's coming to mind is the woman who's prepping to go on maternity leave. And she's doing all of these things to make it very easy for the next person, you know, because he's supposed to temporarily replace her. It's it's just supposed to be her pregnancy leave, but she makes it so easy and she's maybe in the process being appearing to be less ambitious, appearing to be so easygoing that, you know, somebody else can just slip into her job and take it. So, do you see it happening this misdiagnosis of our ambition happening because we're so because we're conditioned to kind of make it easy or do you see it happening structurally more?
I think maybe this angle I think we make things easy for people. So we are more associated with solving operational problems because if you think let's say leadership or let's just stay in the corporate context to rise on top you have to be a visionary you need to have executive presence all this big buzz words which is important I mean look at Steve Jobs or look at some of the great leaders Indra Nooyi as a woman they are these are visionaries and they they the primary association people have with them is strategic leadership long term solving problem in five years you know bring the company into a greater stage in X years whereas if you make things easy is usually operational for example if I write a SOP for a task or for handover I want to make it easy for the next person but then you are giving them the menu operational task is easier or let's say roles that are more have more operational nature are more likely to hand it down to women because we are so particular in doing everything perfectly and these tasks need those you know detail orientation and so on so forth and these tasks are also easier to be replaced and at the same time nobody on the top C-Suitecares about these task they are incredibly essential to They are the bricks you know they are the foundation of the house but you know until the house until the foundation rottens it take a long time to the house to break but imagine you know on top the the ceilings not there then people will recognize them immediately so therefore I think for women and then combined with this humbleness with this okay I'm doing great work but let me not advocate for myself because we don't like women to you know to to their own horns. Especially not especially generally women, you just don't I don't even like them. " It's it's just natural. It's just very natural.
This is social conditioning. And then it's like then you you kind of wait for someone to recognize your work first of all and then your work is not that important for them to recognize. So it's a loose lose combination. Oh. Therefore, and I think I think why I write so passionate about this in LinkedIn is because majority of the women have no idea they are doing this.
They are just doing they wonder okay why I'm so good. I'm so I'm the I'm I'm the you know the worker bee and I am so I do everything right. what has been taught in school by parents by by by the society why am I not rising and that's why oh and you know you've actually answered I was going to say is this you know socially conditioned is it volunteered or is it assigned and I think I'm answering for you but I feel like it's all three you know because everybody's been socially conditioned so it's not just the women the men are expecting it I mean obviously generally speaking because this is what we've all conditioned ourselves into functioning as. what happens because you're helping women break out of this. So what happens either internally, independently or professionally when women start pulling back from that role.
It's a big shift. I think it's a huge internal shift. I think so awareness is the number one. So you have to know what you are doing. That's why I'm pointing this out, you know, saying, okay, the first thing you said was sorry.
It's like you have to be aware number one. And then number two, you have to be willing to make a change because the conditioning that just probably I'm not so sure these are I mean these are trained. I mean I'm I'm going to be 42 this year. This even for me this is trained to be you know if I don't if I'm let's say a bit tired less energy if I'm rambling these words just naturally come out so you have to make a conscious decision to pay attention to what you say how you say it and to be extremely to get to be comfortable with the uneasiness because the person you are talking to or you first showcase yourself in a minor different way that person might not even recognize but the first person you recognize you for example you say okay the meeting starts I let's say I say three things don't don't apologize don't say just don't say probably so now you have to okay what can I say now so there will be a lot of uncomfortable pause there will be like oh my god what are they thinking of me now so there you have to get you have to be comfortable with the growth in that sense. Okay, real quick.
If you're listening and thinking more women should be hearing conversations like this, the best way to support the show is just to follow or subscribe wherever you are. It really does help it reach more people. Thanks so much. Okay, back to the show. And when you start to do that, do you sense So, obviously there's the internal shift, but what about the perception shift?
What's that like for the people that you're now kind of presenting this less passive self to? What's the reaction? Yeah. Usually the reaction so and and this is also the thing. It's not a black and white thing as in I am the you know the the I am the I am usually very muted.
I don't say anything. I only spoken I only speak up when I'm spoken too. Suddenly you stand up in the meeting assert yourself. It's not a zero to one. it starts with okay just remove the just or I am going to say one thing at this meeting.
I'm going to speak up without someone ask me to. So it's never a big shift. This is the this is the tiny habit that James Clear is saying in atomic habit. You know it's like it's a tiny everyday action a little bit which leads later on to the you are going to ask because now for example I say you a woman say I want to have a visibility in QB in quarterly business review but she has never she is the you know the the glue in the team nobody actually asked her to ever step up for her to go to her manager say I want to have a role in the QBR that's going to fail miserably so she has to build a lot of tiny okay remove the jazz, ask for another task. speak up here, let a sponsorship ask for a special project.
They're tiny steps until she has enough you know confidence or enough let's say rapport built up for herself so she can confident see exactly what I just said. Would she could should she would she have said it at the beginning? She was set up for set up to fail. That's a correct. Yeah.
And it would be jarring I guess you know for the people are not used to that. Well, and in these when you work with women and you're you're going through these like I almost look at them like they're like baby steps because you're not going like you said from here to here and just which actually you're reminding me and I talked to a woman who does midlife work and she's talking about you know basically like reclaiming your time for yourself and I actually told her I said to my husband last year on New Year's he wanted to go to a party it was New Year's Day and I mean I had been doing this kind internal thought process already, but I guess I didn't take any baby steps. I did and you know it's my husband so it's a little bit different because we have a different relationship obviously than somebody I have a professional relationship with and he said well do you I really want to do this and I was like no and he was like what I'm like I no you elaborate yeah I was like I'm not I'm just not interested and he was like you sound a little bit selfish and I was like I yes I am I'm not but and you know that might work and it didn't really I mean it did because I held my ground but he was definitely a little bit dumbfounded and it took some explaining obviously in a professional setting or hopefully somebody's not going to go from that to that. So, but where are the but there is one way I'm just going to jump in on that. There is one way to do that as well if you want to and I als because this is the concern number one when I tell women okay the tiny steps yes but also you have to you have to start somewhere not because some the excuses will come in or this is not the setting or this is not you know the fear of doing the first step how are how other people are going to perceive us because we're suddenly different the fear is very strong especially by I would say more introverted people women or women who are I would say a bit older I mean my at my age they have been behaved a certain way for a significant amount of time now suddenly they make the change for them is very scary what I tell them a good tip is actually you tell your the let's your peers or I would say the the ideally your team if you work in a workplace where you have enough psychological safety where you feel comfortable to speak in an intimate setting or to your people of trustee your trustees in the company saying I want to share something with you because I'm in this year I want to work on something on myself number one is I want to be more whatever more assertive to have more boundaries to be to improve my whatever and that's and I would like you to help me and hold myself hold me accountable.
So I you might you might observe that I behave in certain situation differently. This might look like I have never spoken up in our team meetings but in the future I'd like to speak up without the filler words. I have noticed that you have done a great job in this. Can you give me some tips? So in whatever way you have the relationship with people, you announce the surprise to them.
This has two I would say two positive effects. One is now you come back up not because you announced it number one and number two you will be surprised how people are going to jump in especially men are saying oh I was waiting for you to finally do this because I see you have so much potential and I wonder why you never present your idea instead let our manager do it or why do you explain so you know a woman we work with very funny he she has a teammate who is a him and she said he men's playing her idea all the time but always give her the credit and one day she said this to him she said I appreciate very much you know our relationship I like I like work with you very much and now I want to be more assertive in my language and then he said to her I was wondering when this day is coming the reason that oh I always repeat your idea frankly with you is that you don't come to the point. I understand what you are saying but the majority don't. So I am not mansplaining you.
You know I was so amused and then it was such a light-hearted moment but at the same time it also just demystify certain thing. You think oh my god that's someone stealing my idea. Not at all. And that because he just want to want the world to know the great idea she has but she does not bring to the point. Frankly, this is this is so refreshing because I feel like so much of and I'm guilty of this myself, so much of especially in a in a podcast that talks about, you know, elevating women in different ways or advocating for women.
And so, you know, we're always so pro- women that what ends up happening even inadvertently is that there's almost like a negative aspect to men. And I'm always like, no, no, no. Like, I have a husband and a son and a father. I love men. I just am advocating for women.
But I feel that sometimes it men are portrayed negatively. " but instead they've been advocating for the women in their company and it's just refreshing to hear your perspective. I like that a lot. what have you felt about when women actually start to notice this? You said a lot of times it might be older women.
Are they in a career that feels stagnant and they're watching their peers kind of move up without them? When do they start to notice that they're kind of the glue, but they're not getting the accolades or the advancement or the career promotion that maybe they think they should be getting. Usually it's usually it's the mid management level where you actually have maybe have where you have your first people manager role but in the but the very first one. I think if I there is I think the women we work with we work from all the way from junior to C-Suite but where I think women most it's difficult there's no I don't want to say a wrong stats but my own perception with the women we work with is that two level one is this what I said is the first people manager role now you want to rise to a director something so you lead people managers I think that's the most difficult step. I think if you look at the pyramid, you know, all junior women and then now senior junior women junior women was more not junior woman was more women was there for senior manager role and then now people manager then people manager of people manager.
If you look at here, I think the the pyramid became suddenly much more narrow in. So this is the first role. So getting from the ground to the next level and then to the people's me to managing to the first row of managing people that's with at with the hard work I think you can reach there with the hard work only now when you manage people suddenly you have a different people will perceive you differently you report to someone who is in the middle as that person probably is still working on his or her how do I go on to the next level. So he or she does not give lot of [ __ ] about you for yet. So you have to make sure that he or she has a lot of attention has a lot of your work matters so much to them but also so little they can get rid of you so you can rise to their level or to another function but at the same time they advocate for you as well.
So, so now the difficulty is that but majority of the women spend there 99% of their energy managing their own team and their own work. So they don't manage up at all. Uhhuh. Which make you entirely stuck. Actually you can remove everything what I just said before.
I think I rambled a lot. This is actually the key point. You don't they don't manage up at this level. And from there the higher you rise manage up. Manage your boss's boss.
manage your boss's peer. Who else beside your boss knows your work? Who from the C-Suite knows your work? The higher your rise, the more important you become. And I think that's something men do naturally because they have to for them is back to the stone time.
They have to hunt the mammoth. They have one goal. Let's go for it. Everybody just, you know, take your weapon and then let's kill the mammoth. Well, women you have to be okay.
There's a fire, there's the kid, there is the elderly, there's the donkey, there is you know in the tribe you are divided. That's why they say you they assume that women are so good in multitasking because you have to do things at many things at the same time. So now in the modern mammoth days men if you let's say I want to be the CEO. So the only way for me to become a CEO is to manage everything you know to to to go to see to in order to reach the CEO who is the SVP who is the EVP who else do I have to know so for them they are they are very targeted where else when women are in there in this role they're like okay let's manage down let's make sure that my team are well taken care of yes let's make sure that my peers like me let's make sure that my direct boss is satisfied with me then I say you are one reorganization away from being irrelevant in the moment where your boss is gone, you're gone. And I think these are things again women are not aware.
You have to understand the how do you manage up? How do you even teach somebody to manage up just a whole new Oh, it's it's actually it's actually fairly simple in the sense of if you are if you let's say your boss, what does what does your boss want? What do you see? What that if you were to incorporate or the all the women you have interviewed, what would be your boss? What does your boss want?
Average boss. Okay. They I they want you to be success. They want to make more money. They want to be the they want to they want to keep going up.
So exactly right. But the first reaction is they want you to feel well which women think. Oh no, they don't. Why should they? I mean you are you are not I hate this narrative.
Oh, we are one big family. You are not. You don't fire your family members. You know, right? Right.
Your son can go to prison. You will still love him eternally. Same for me. You know, it's a it's a you won't do this for your workplace. No family your boss want to go up or money is all about him.
So what can you do to make him look good? So managing up meaning how can I so dear boss how can I make your life easy. This is the mainstream. After you make your life easy, then you set condition saying in order to do this you of course you have to prove that you can make his life easy. And then you tell okay my goal like subtly is going to be I want to be not your position.
Do I want to rise at your level one day? I admire your work so much. I mean give them a lot of sugar. You are good. You are good.
Go ahead. Men are especially for men. Men are simple creatures, you know. You give them some sugar and they are very happy. So, you know, you and then you admire them then.
So, now you have you're in the position you make their life easy. You admire them. Unless it is a very insecure man, which is majority not the case because they usually think very high of themselves. They would love to help you as well. It's just genuinely human nature.
You want to help someone who makes you feel good and who help you to succeed. Why shouldn't they? Oh, you this is very You're very good. All right. Be so say you've got a woman who is recognizing this, right?
That they're not moving up and but they don't they don't yet hear about you. They don't have these ideas for like these incremental steps they could do. They don't really know what they're doing wrong and they're kind of waiting for systemic change. " At what point do you does waiting for systems to change start to become kind of self-abandonment for a woman? Because this isn't just really this is your career, but it affects your self-esteem.
It affects your self-worth. When do you say enough is enough and you start to make these changes? Because if you don't, I mean that could really be your whole life. Yeah, this is a very individual decision. I think for majority of women, the one you describe, there are many of them.
To be brutally honest, the pain of stuck is just not high enough. It sounds brutal. Oh my god, I'm so stuck. I'm not moving up. Then quit.
then do something. You are in control complete. We are not talking about the poor African or Indian women sitting there waiting for mercy for some you know but we are talking about women who work who are mostly highly educated and working in the role mostly they have a house they have a they are well settled in their family and I think the comfort of being there or the fear of oh my god what are other gonna think of me or the fear of if I step out going to another role or ask for another company pursue another role is much higher than the comfort that they have in their current job. The pain is simply not enough because for majority of the women again is it's a I should be promoted. I should get that role because I'm good.
It's not a must. For me, for example, I think the biggest difference that I said back then, for whatever reason, I want to be the first Chinese female CEO running a Fortune 500 company in Germany. And that back then was a must for me. It's not anymore. But I because it was a must, I want to make everything happen to make that happen until I recognized what a ridiculous idea I had for not that good, not good enough, but for different reasons.
But for most of the women, they the the craving for power, for rising, for promotion is simply not big enough. Do you feel like there's a reason for it? Just or do you feel like it's because you said, you know, this isn't we're not talking about people who were starving or desperate there. There's something unfortunate about being comfortable, too. And sometimes it's that you're not driven.
I remember my very first real job was at a publishing company and I met a girl who was more advanced than me when I started and then I moved ahead of her and she had been offered many times to move up and she was like I refuse I refuse to move up because I do not want to be in this field and if I move up I'm going to get comfortable so I stay miserable because she was pursuing an education And she's like, I'm pursuing more education, but if I get comfortable here, I'll get too comfortable. Like, if I get comfortable with the comfort, I'll never put myself in that position. And do you feel like that's what it is? And why don't the men get comfortable? Because for men, there's no other option.
I think this is also very societal. " Thank God it has become more normalized today. But let's say 10 years ago, a stay-at-home husband. Oh my god, what a loser. I mean, I mean, seriously.
No, no, no. Not even the men think about that. He think about that. Women think about that. Everybody thinks about that.
No, I'm a stay-at-home wife. Okay. So, okay. Of course, human empowerment. You're not doing anything for yourself.
Blah blah. You're taking care of your children, you know, of the house or whatever. It's it's it's more acceptable society for women not to rise, not to do anything. Still, it is. No, but for a man unfortunately it's the option not to succeed or whatever that means is not there.
I societ is less society acceptable. Therefore they have to and often when men especially for example Europe are very often still the own bread winner. So they have they will have to they will have to have another choice. Yes. And then whereas in Asia for example back in my days my both her parent my parents work very hard because there was why your mom cannot stay at home yet she cannot otherwise I have no food.
This is the rural China back then. So somehow women ha have a choice today where else they didn't in the past and for men for them it's it's it's getting better but it's it's not. That's a great explanation. I like that a lot. And I want to move over a little bit to your TED talk because you talk about, you know, you talk first of all, you've got these incremental steps that you talk about that you can bring to the workplace, but you also mentioned that if women like how confidence shows up differently in private versus professional spaces.
And so you talk about how you've got to be comfortable in your personal spaces and show your confidence there to be able to bring it at home. How does that how can you talk about how that shows up in the workplace or about like with some different women you worked with can be example of how they started acting on their confidence at home before they brought it into the workplace. Yeah. So the theory I have is that confidence is a muscle. I mean this is not a theory of mine but that the theory I have is most women ma have married their glass own glass ceilings at home the glass ceiling does not start in the corporate space.
Majority of the women that I work with, if you look back in their family time and then they all say they have very supportive husband but if you go down deeper some many of them are even the main bread winner or earn out earn their husband or you know are actually better professionally than their husband but still when it comes to home this expectation I'm not saying his expectation her expectation somehow where they are at home is that she still do the majority way more than 50% of work or caregiving where it should be. m. So, I was I always say you have 9 to5 and 5 to9 what how does your 5 to9 looks like has an immediate impact how you perform in your 9 to5 because your if you don't if you don't assert yourself if you can't even tell your husband to bring out the trash that's already wrong narrative. If your husband doesn't voluntarily bring get out the trash unless you ask him, how unempowered are you? How are you going to ask your boss or your peer?
Let's assume they are men to do something that you know that is in your in your that is do something for you or do something that you want them to do. You can't even ask the closest person. Take your example. You said your h to your husband he said I want to go to that vacation and you said no I mean this a big this is a full sentence no I mean this is very all respect to you but it's it's how many women usually oh let me think about it let me do this actually it's a clear no but it's very difficult it's you the n the nature of women especially at home it's not at home actually everywhere but especially at home is adapt you know to I want make everybody else happy then I'm happy. Yes.
kill that idea first, you know. So, and then because when my husband when he goes to the dedication, he's in a good mood or therefore I'm in a good mood. The kids are in good mood. You know the consequences. But it's it's you already compromise yourself there.
And this is again the tiny habit I'm talking about. Before we're talking about tiny habit of growing, now we're talking about tiny habit of shrinking. m. The damn trash is still there and it start to stink. So I'm going to bring it out again.
You have done his task because now his memory gonna Yeah, she's going to bring out anyway. So isn't it crazy? Yes. and you're and it's so crazy you're identifying it all and I'm I'm I feel like I'm generally pretty expressive and open, but there are plenty of times in my marriage and then, you know, it carries over where you start to think, you know what, it's just easier if I do it myself. Yeah.
And then years later, there's the excuse that you're so much better at it. Well, of course I'm better at it. You trained yourself. I trained myself. I took ownership over it to make things easier for whom you know it's it is an interesting it is an interesting world out there and I and you know not just from us that we're doing it personally and internally in our own homes and with our own relationships but I would say even generationally especially generationally you might have I don't know about you but I have one sister I grew up with well I grew up in a house with one sister and no brother.
So my parents were like, "You girls can do anything. " We believed it and we believed it. And so, you know, fast forward to 2017, I was I was running for public office and I dropped my daughter off. " And she was like, "You didn't make him. " And I'm like, "No, he's a grown man.
He's" and I It's not like he had the kid. " It's just so, you know, but it's it was conditioned from my own mom who's who's right there cheering for me and saying I can do anything and trying to support me in that anything, but yet there's an expectation that I'm going to manage it all. Do you see that from the women you work with as well? A lot. And I would say I mean Indra Nooyi brought this great example as an older story where she said she was already the CEO of Pepsico.
" And she said, "Mom, I am the I'm the CEO of PepsiCo. " But then mom said, "No, but her to her point, she said, you that's your that's be that's that side of the door, you know, you are inside of the door. You are a wife, you know. I mean, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it's it's it's the same. So the generationalism is one thing but also what our husbands believe you know or what we let them believe is it's what one thing is like you said it's a conditioned what we have learned the second thing is also our behavior tell the signal to to the other person to to your partner that what we tolerate and the boundary you know people are saying okay you have to have the boundaries like bang No, it's it's it's you know the boundary is pushed you know so is that like death that's by thousand cuts a little bit a little bit a little bit little bit the boundary actually has to be boom in a way because when you push this a little bit it's oh they know okay next time I'm going to push a little bit a little bit because you already said yes to that so it's yes to this you already made dinner last time oh you're already making it so that just do it's you is never the big decision it's rather the small again it's the small decisions then which make the partner at home think oh okay she can do it or she you know she will do it anyway and I will have my will anyway she will compromise anyway because you also set the signal because majority I mean you said you you ask the women I work with they I don't I think majority of their husband are very supportive as the definition of you They will they will let the women have their corporate careers and they are not saying okay you cannot travel to here or there but these are very basic human rights sometime if I listen what does a supportive husband mean and then if you really go down to the details of okay who does what and then why didn't you take the role in Dubai oh that require my husband to change job how many women have changed the job for their h for their husbands you know if you ask to the fundamental question that really matter matters to a woman's career or to her, let's say, awakening or to her success.
Men are not usually the biggest supporter at home because we also didn't train them to be the biggest supporter at home because we let them we tolerated a lot of things of their behavior and human nature is just to push further. Quick pause because if you're listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind of person I write for. I send out a Substack newsletter where I go a little deeper, more personal stories, behind the scenes thoughts, and honestly, some of the things we don't always say out loud here. com. I'd love to have you there.
And now back to your regularly scheduled podcast. Okay, let me ask you another question. Based on this, do you feel that it's harder to start making the change changes at home or is it harder to make them at work? " But almost maybe not. It I guess it depends on your specific relationship and your how much conditioning has gone on there.
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's also becomming what kind of persona you are because for example the reason that we don't sometimes we don't want to show our most genuine self to the people are close to us reason being we don't want them to we don't want to be vulnerable because they are important to us so if you let's say if you screw up at work okay worse come to worse we have we I mean we suffer more in imagination than in reality but worse come to worse you fire or whatever, then you have nothing to do with the company anymore. But at home with your mom, with your dad, with your partner, they're gonna stay with you, you know, for rest of your life kind of. so you don't want to show them certain vulnerability because you don't want to be hurt by them, be judged by them. So I understand actually sometimes harder or as counterintuitive as it might sound it is harder to show to set boundaries to ask for things to assert yourself at home.
Therefore, start with the harder thing first because they will if if worse come to worse he does not accept who you are then I would actually question the relationship because very often also 18 years later she said okay now the kids are out of house I recognize I'm married to the wrong person you better recognize this earlier than later you know so there is only upside what I'm trying to help women with why start better at home is that you can only have upside because majority major of the time but your mom your partner is supportive. He just does not understand what's your genuine need because you never assert it. So say the same thing. We don't know ourselves because we're so used to being accommodating. And you know, even that no that I said like a no, I'm not going to the party.
And prior, I think that's why my husband was so baffled because prior I would have said, I don't know if I feel I don't really feel great or maybe we could go for a little bit or, you know, I really wanted to make some dinner. You know, I would have framed it a different way. I would have softened it just to make it easier on all of us. So, you know, I stepped into that myself. That time was like the full no.
" But I do think Yeah, I think you're right and I really appreciate this. I want to ask one final question. If you so you know there are ways to work with you personally but if you don't if for the woman who's just waking up to the fact that she's carrying more than her share whether in her marriage or in her career but likely both because it's probably happening all over the place even if she's not fully aware of it but she's noticing things are moving ahead and she's not. What's the first thing she needs to stop assuming? Or what's the first step she can take on her own before even, you know, learning to work with somebody who can maybe help her get from A to Z?
How could she get from A to B on her own? Yeah, I think assuming there are a lot of assumptions. This is a very individual question. Again, if I generalize with the pattern that I see, I think the number one personally professionally I start with professionally first. Stop assuming that people know what you want or your hiring manager know what you want or people who have decision power know what you want.
In 99% of the time, they don't. They rarely know your name. Let's say let's just stick to the promotion path. Okay, I want to get promoted and my number one question always with women is okay does your manager know your work as in now I give him a call can he say Daniel has done this three gracing last quarter I guarantee you it's a law because we always because the manager usually this is also a patent for them if you're great at your work you are the last person your manager going to take care of because when do you go to a manager When right when you have a problem right when there is something the problem is usually the lower performer go to the manager. So if you are the workhorse who solve everything your manager was like oh my god great horse by you know she takes care of everything but she he has no idea what you're taking care of.
He just know okay that house is not burning let me go to the other house and and pull water there. So he is more likely to know the low performer team member what they are not doing well than knowing the high performer what you are doing well. So stop assuming that he knows what you do and ask him. Yeah. Okay.
I was going to say and about that do you schedule meetings try to cultivate a relationship or is it how do you how do you let him know? Send an email. FYI I'm fabulous with your oh no with your manager. This is a I think again it depends on the dynamic in culture differences and so on but like when you very generally you should schedule once a month a meeting with your manager anyway could be a coffee chat could be a dinner it depends what's the setting you know in social setting people tend to you know tend to tend to loosen up a little bit and you have to let them know first what you want and then this is always the conversation you know Dave now you know I have been in this role for two years now I have the ambition to become whatever like you or the next role. and I would I have always appreciated our relationship and I want to be a manager as like you.
Can we schedule a 30 minutes whatever or you know and then you and then you help me understand how can I get there always link to their success you know you appreciate of them because usually then women will just go there and saying I've done all these great things I think I deserve promotion. So when that happening never you know you know you have to make it about them when you don't have a relationship especially when they don't know because now you put them you make them feel good and then now I recognize oh this is actually my high performing horse now she appreciate my opinion so I'm going to share my wisdom with her that's the first door opener okay you know that's like I think that then you have to take it from there how that person is because there are different color of manager blue you know the blue the red with the but then you have to take it from there depends on the organization and how he reacts. Gotcha. Well and I feel like a lot of what you're saying is really I mean obviously there's actions but so much of it is just enlightening about the ideas of the whole process. So much of it I feel like is just taking a step back and evaluating where you want to go and then putting in those steps to get there because I think like you said you know somebody will be in there for two years and say okay you know I've done all these great things why I'm ready go and obviously then it doesn't happen that way because and I will say you know don't wait for resentment because usually you have that that the unsatisfaction or resentment even at home or at work It's build up you know if you wear I mean two years is short enough at least I have some women working seven years for that role and then they are so they suddenly then we suddenly start to talk together she is suddenly aware of all the things she didn't manage to do and it's and then suddenly it's so build up and then they you know storm into the manager room says I deserve this and then it's set up to fail.
Therefore, don't wait until it's it's never too late, but don't wait until you have built up so much emotional burden inside of you that you cannot have a rational conversation anymore. Oh my gosh, Jingjin, this was so helpful. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you wanted to cover? Oh, maybe I would say maybe, you know, a lot of podcaster like to ask that question. I'm just going to put the question here.
" I I usually don't have any advice but I do think one thing because I just recently recognized this is a little bit of my awakening that why a lot of women don't rise. this is only based on jing theory no data back. This is my gut feel is that we do not respect ourself enough. This is very I mean this is a much longer conversation but if I if I summarize it very easily is that we don't respect ourself enough which leads to low self-esteem we don't keep our words to ourself give the easy example if you cheat if let's say in the in the relationship is my partner cheat on me I'm gone what happened with most of the women I know they have kids they have circumstances many reasons and It's usually if my husband tell me I treated on you I I will say okay let's sit down and settle how we do the kids it's a no and this is a boundary this is a self-respect because if you stay for whatever reason you actually don't respect yourself I mean this is a much bigger thing no but also the same is for promotion for workplace very often going back to what I said was the resentment with the things that they promised me promotion two years ago three years ago four years ago Why do you stay? You are not loyal to yourself.
So to any success you have to be loyal to yourself. And I think women fundamentally myself included just suck at it because we are so badly social condition to make other people happy to be loyal to others to be satisfactory to other people to feel other people's need. We actually forget the person that we need to look eye to eye with is yourself and that's where everything starts. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
You know what? I just read one of your posts and you said you said something and you're like you don't have any respect for yourself. And that's like a very gut punchy statement to read because at some point in everybody's life, you have something where you're like, I should have advocated for myself more or I, you know, you look back at maybe you're young and a teenage girl or you're, you know, whenever it is or maybe you're maybe you're an adult woman. there are always situations where you're like, I could have done this differently or I should and it's and that's what it stems from. It's the lack of respect you gave yourself or you had of yourself in that situation.
and I would I feel like the last thing I would say in response to that is my goal is as a mom to a daughter also is that we really and a son, but that we really hopefully show them or help them develop that self-respect at an earlier age that, you know, I don't necessarily know that was something that was cultivated in my upbringing. It wasn't like you need to have self there were a lot of things you need to succeed, you need to do this, you need to be nice. but nobody said you need to go home and make sure you can look at yourself in the mirror. And that's a big thing. Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you. I really like that. and I'll obviously I'm going to include in our show notes some links to some of your LinkedIn posts, but also your TED talk and your companies and your website. So, thank you so much for being here and your generosity of spirit.
I really appreciate it. Thank you, Daniel, for having me. It was a great conversation. It was. Thank you.
Thanks so much for our conversation, Jingjin. I especially love the way that Jingjin put language to something so many women experience at work but don't always say out loud. That tension between wanting to show up fully and navigating spaces that weren't necessarily built with us in mind. Next week, we're shifting into a conversation that's also personal about identity reinvention and what happens when you start telling the truth about your own midlife in a deeper way with Ellen Scherr. In the meantime, if you were nodding along to this episode, share it with a friend.
Thanks for listening as always and see you next week on Roar.
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