Birth Trauma Is Real: What Recovery Actually Looks Like, with Stephanie Thompson

We don’t talk enough about what happens after childbirth—the recovery, the pain, the silence. The way your body changes, and how the system expects you to just carry on. In this episode of Roar, host Danielle Davies sits down with Stephanie Thompson, founder of Bravemumma, to talk about childbirth trauma, pelvic health, and the power of radical honesty.

After a traumatic birth injury left her with lifelong complications, Stephanie made a choice: she could hide her experience—or she could use it to help other women feel less alone. Through her book "The Day My Vagina Broke," her podcast, and her advocacy work, she’s challenged the silence surrounding childbirth trauma and pelvic health, while helping women reclaim ownership of their bodies and their recovery stories.

Together, Danielle and Stephanie talk about

💥 The physical and emotional aftermath of birth injuries—and the lack of information women receive.

💬 Why shame keeps women from seeking the help they need.

⚡ How medical systems fail to prepare women for the realities of childbirth recovery.

💪 What it takes to turn pain into purpose—and find humor and hope along the way.

❤️ How honesty and community can transform even the most isolating experiences.

Stephanie’s story is not easy—but it’s necessary. She’s giving language to what too many women are taught to endure silently, and proving that vulnerability is a form of strength.

🔑 Key Takeaways from This Episode

Birth injuries are more common than we think—and silence keeps them invisible.

Healing is physical and emotional.

When women share their stories, stigma loses power.

Advocacy often begins with one person refusing to be quiet about their pain.

💬 Share this episode with someone who’s ever felt unprepared for what comes after birth.

Listen to ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture & Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. New conversations every Tuesday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6tAU06ne80

Full Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and lightly cleaned up. It may contain small errors.

House. Hi, I'm Danielle Davies and you're listening to Roar, a show that amplifies the voices of women breaking barriers, leading change, and making real impact. Keep listening for bold ideas and stories that inspire you to find your voice and make some noise. Hi everybody, welcome back to Roar. I'm your host Danielle Davies.

Today's guest knows what it means to take the most personal, even painful experience and turn it into a movement that helps other women. Stephanie Thompson is the founder of Brave Mama, author of The Day My Vagina Broke, and host of the Lowdown with Brave Mama podcast. What began as her own story of birth trauma and pelvic health challenges has grown into a platform that empowers women to make informed choices, break taboos, and possibly most important, know they're not alone. Being brave with her story not only resonated with women everywhere, it also gave Stephanie a whole new career trajectory. These days, she's moved from hosting her own podcast to helping podcasters everywhere identify and build meaningful partnerships with her company, Podcast Expert Lab.

In our conversation, we'll explore what it took for her to share so openly, what she's learned along the way, and how she believes more women can start and create change. Welcome, Stephanie. Welcome. Thank you. That is such the most that is one of the most beautiful intros I've ever had.

I appreciate you. No, thank you so much. And I, as you know, because we were just discussing, I'm really excited that you're here for many reasons, but honestly, we're going to just start right at the beginning. And you know, I always look at life as there are, and I'm sure a lot of people do. There are these before and after moments that are like lifechanging and defining.

And your book is based on one such life-changing moment. Although moment is really a really small way to put what your experience was. Could you talk us about could you talk to us about the experience that led up to you writing your book just so everybody has an idea about what we're talking about? For sure. And I think it can go onto multiple levels, Danielle.

So give me a little bit of insight into your audience. First, are we predominantly female moms talking here? Not all moms, but all women who are interested in different ways to support other women. And very interested in either advocacy or innovation. Perfect.

Because when you and this is something I've learned like my daughter's turning 10 this year, so we've been doing this for a decade almost. And I feel like if you can talk to the audience in the right way, it gets received in the right way. Sometimes it's doesn't quite hit and sometimes it does because there is trauma involved. So for example, way back when they used to tell us to do a trigger warning for people. So because you're talking about trauma, now I kind of more preface it as if there's anything in this conversation that comes up for you, not just the particular birthing part itself, just press pause, take a break.

Like this is the beauty of podcasting. Like it's that simple. Because I feel like sometimes when you preface everything with trauma, people already get their they get tense. They get the shoulders up and it's hard to receive how they can take that information and implement it in their own life to help others or themselves. Absolutely.

Absolutely. I think that's great. And yes, I think that's definitely better than the yellow caution tape that we would otherwise have up. Yes. That is only good when you are speaking to people who are charged with caring for you.

So that's the doctors, obstitricians, political side of things because we have to scare them a little bit for them to take action. If there's no fear involved like legal action, they just hear you and it goes in one ear and out the other. So they see how there's there's a time and a place for particular parts of your story and how you tell it for it to have an outcome at the other end. So, if we're talking to women here, I'm going to really take the angle of how we don't know our own bodies. That is a great angle.

And also, if you wouldn't mind, and I'm sure you will, touching on the idea of what we don't know about giving birth. And we kind of all want to remain blissfully unaware because it is scary. And really, once you're there, there's there's really no going back. you've got to get through to the other side. And I think a lot of us I was not even remotely aware of the situation that you had.

I had until just a few years ago, I didn't even know what pelvic organ prolapse was even to a minor degree. So anyway, 100% and I think okay so let's get into it. Although people like what are you stop dancing around the topic? So basically I can describe myself as a very driven I was classed as a geriatric mom. So as a first-time mom I was 35 years old had an amazing career you know and a triathlete in all of the things that I guess people would say was an A type personality.

So everything I did was to the nth degree always raising the bar. So for me child birth was well I'm going to have the perfect birth. I've seen those videos. I've seen them not even scream and just like breathe the baby down and just take a deep breath and then it just pops out. So, I'm sorry laughing at myself right there.

I know. I know. No, I remember being like this the most important thing being what was going to be on the playlist and what outfit is the baby going home in. Right. Right.

Right. Very important. that is the honest mindset becau because at the same time we have this you know our inner circle of women who don't want to scare you but here's the truth I was scared anyway and I was just pretending not to be by doing breath work or by listening to meditations but it was all masking because ultimately now in the 10 years since I've done a lot of healing and a lot of work it came up about 3 years ago I was scared she was going to die. But I never told anyone. I had this thing that in childbirth she wasn't going to make it.

And so I carried that silently. And I think that made my body so tense. Plus being an athlete. So these are the things I've learned after the fact. Being an athlete would have led to me having a very tight pelvic floor.

Oh wow. to have a baby, you need your pelvic floor to move with breath. Like literally stretch and move and stretch and move. But if you are tense, it's like a rock and it doesn't move. So the baby can't move.

So then the baby gets stuck. So all of these factors led to the cascade of events that le that you know was classed as a traumatic birth. And what I want to say about that now is having gone through it and healed, I probably wouldn't use that same word as what I did even six years ago because trauma is just how you felt about it at the time. H okay. Now, now I would class it as a complicated birth because it didn't I had to have intervention being I think it's important to have this little umbrella here.

I wanted natural birth and I'm using inverted commas for those who are not watching because that's what I was told and sold is the best method to birth your baby. Here in Australia, cesarian section birth is not an option. It's only for emergency or if you were paying a private obstitrician. So if you in the public system and you have a baby, there's there was actually government policy called towards normal birth and they made the women push the babies out at whatever cost. So, I was the result of that government policy that led me to push my daughter for way too long.

They let it go too long. And I didn't know because I thought I was educated in what I needed to know, like the playlist, the candles, the baby outfit, what to, you know, all the best bottles to use, etc. I didn't even know the mechanics of my own body. So when they were saying push, I'm like I am. I am.

But I wasn't. Or when they were saying do this, do that, I'm like I'm doing it. But I was so delusional, exhausted, like mentally m I think they call it maternal exhaustion. I couldn't even stand. My legs were shaking so much.

What I learned was she was posterior, so she was facing the wrong way. her chin her chin kept getting stuck. So, as she's trying to get down and she's stuck and they then tried to vacuum her, but it failed four times. That's what I was going to say. Four times, right?

Legally, they're meant to have two goes and that's it. On the fourth time, it actually ripped her scalp off her head and deformed her scalp. So even now she has this epic they called a kiwi cup shaped head on she's got a big lump on her head and so when that failed the fourth time they look remembering things from so long ago is it's almost like you remember how you've retold it. " And I'm saying this because as an educated woman, I felt very blindsided by that. I was like, "Why didn't I know what that was?

" Like, I was missing a whole half of child birth education that I just didn't have access to. " Like, I didn't even know what the word was to ask. Exactly. I was going to say, I think that it's interesting. I know I knew what an apesiottomy was because I was in the room helping deliver a baby and somebody needed one.

I didn't I mean, and by helping, I mean standing there helplessly holding someone's hand. But, I don't I didn't know that. And that those aren't conversations that anybody and you know I'm here in the US and I'm sure there's there are differences and there are similarities but the thing is I think overwhelmingly we find that doctors through no fault of their own are tasked with something that happens every day but it doesn't make it easy. It's a ve it is a high-risisk endeavor and they're doing their best to kind of kindly plate us so we don't completely lose our minds and because I think I would completely lose just even in I can remember there used to be a TV show here in the US called the birth story or the baby story and on the learning channel there were actual births and people would follow these women and I remember watching one time and I was pregnant and I started I was like sobbing and I ran up to my husband. I'm like there's no way I can do I take it back like there's no way I can do this.

And you know the answer was of course you can it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. And it isn't always fine. And we don't even have the language.

It actually does make you feel less educated than you would normally feel because you're so in the dark. You are. And this is the problem. Yeah. That's it.

No, and even through the research in my book, surprisingly, I found in like cuz in our particular states, there's different child birth resources. One of them didn't even have the word aziotomy. It had like an A to Zed of words and topics in childirth. And I remember I still have it printed in the E. Apeziottomy is missing yet it's really commonly routinely used to help babies come out.

So they cut from front to back to try and give it space for her to come out. And all through this natural child birth education they also tell you don't need pain medication. So all of this was happening with zero pain medication. Okay? because they also make you think it's like that breastfeeding versus bottle feeding, formula feeding.

they pitted against each other. So, vaginal child birth and cesarian child birth are pitted against each other that one is better than the other. Remembering I wanted to be the best and the best was vaginal child birth. That's what we were always being told. It's so good for your baby.

It gets all the natural and yada yada. Oh, absolutely. That's that's absolutely that's that's the gold standard. And without drugs, without medication, without treatment, that's the gold standard. Are you ready for it?

" Until I couldn't do that. Right. Right. It sounds lovely. So, in the moment, not only are you struggling, but you're also feeling like you're failing at it because you're not doing it enough.

Like it was just this lack of enoughness, like why can't I get this? which obviously in turn, which we know now, makes you even more tense. Your body even goes even tighter. So, I think at this point, I mean this is like over 35 hours, so this is very a bridged version. They the decision was made to get her out using forceps.

Now this is where the story really begins because this is my life now is because of this the use of forceps and rotating her ripped like basically they put them in they turned her the right way. She came out she was alive. We were we were just stunned actually. " And then they cry. We were both silent.

My husband and I were just like, "What? " But is it over, please? Yeah. Is she alive? " Anyway, so then because the whole time they were saying I kept saying, "Is something wrong with her?

" Well, I don't believe you. I don't believe what anyone is saying and I've lost trust after 35 hours. I mean it's not like a minor adjustment. That's you are that is a long time. You would be hallucinating if you weren't giving birth.

Mhm. Yeah. Disorienting and awful. Sorry. So then when they this is this again all of this I only found out months and years after the fact.

No one even told me any of this as I left the hospital. The rotation of the forceps tore the m the pelvic floor muscle off the bone which means that now no matter no matter how many keles or pelvic floor physios I see you can't reattach it to the bone. So you can't excuse me you can't strengthen one whole side and partially the other side. I left the delivery suite in a wheelchair and they sent me home the next day. So, I had stitches from front to back, three layers of stitches that when you think about it, cuz it's it's from the opening of your vagina through to your anus.

That's the epziom front to back. That is where you sit. And when you have that many stitches, it's really hard to walk around. you've just given birth, you have this new baby. it got infected really bad.

" And just that whole, "You'll be fine. It's okay. You're just a new mom. You just you're worrier. " I have a question.

If it had not gotten infected, it already would have been irreparable damage. Mhm. So they basically just adding insult to injury by letting this get infected and somebody coming to you every day and nobody believing you. Well, I said to her at one point, I can smell it like and because of the generation we grew up in, Danielle, you never really looked down there. It was that was Chaboo.

I remember one day I got my camera out and I was like, I need to see. I need to see. I can Something is not right. And I looked and I was like, "Oh my god, they're so stupid. There's another baby there.

" Like this round pink bulge in my vagina. Looked like a baby's head crowning. Oh my god. And of course, sleep deprivation could just gone through all that. We rang and told them and they were kind of a bit very dismissive, a little bit giggly like, "No, that's not that's not a baby, dude.

" You know, But still it's so abnormal especially for you. I mean anybody this happens to unless they were born like this it's abnormal. It's your body has had your body has at least experienced trauma right it's experienced something enormous something tearing or breaking or injured and it's not looking or performing in the way that it did. " You know, you'd hear a heartbeat, things like this. " Because I didn't know how it happened yet.

You know, I don't I didn't get to the outcome and I realize you haven't either and I'm jumping the gun, but I is it your placenta? " I know. You know. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah.

So, I think at the end of that conversation, like I was in the bathroom hysterical. My husband was holding a crying baby and on the phone to the midwife through the door. I wouldn't let him come in. I was horrified. I was embarrassed.

I had a lot of shame. And then he was saying to me, she said, "It's okay. " And I remember yelling through the door, I am not effing fine. This is not fine. This is not okay.

And the midwife said, "Well, if she's that worried, go to the GP. go to the doctor. So the next day I did cuz it was this was in the night time. The next day I went to the doctor and he just looked at me and he said oh like down he was looking between my legs and he said oh darling what did they do to you? I was black and blue with bruises.

My GP said that to me. And is this is because of the birth itself or is this also added because of the infection? Just the bruising was from the birth. And then he said, "Yes, your stitches are highly infected. " Oh, thank God.

Thank God. " Like, yeah. Okay. They did send me to the hospital and luckily I met this obstitrician who was just that light like light and shining armor I guess. He had a good look and he said okay I think we can clear this up in 2 days but you need to do these protocols like two lots of antibiotics as he said because if you go under anesthetic right now these are the risks and benefits.

One of the risks was no like the ability to breastfeed for days. Okay. And of course, I was that perfect high achieving mom. I had to breastfeed. Like, I mean, you look at all that now and you think, "Oh my god, that poor girl has put through so much to believe that this there's only one way to be a good mom, and that's just all garbage.

" so then when it got to day three, I think it was actually clearing up. " Like, so you just had this pushpull between the people you were meant to trust. And they were a team. They It's a midwife team. and they couldn't even work out which direction to help me.

So, it was a mess. I was a mess. Like the most vulnerable time of any new mom's life, having a newborn baby, if it goes swimmingly well, is still completely challenging. It's still totally overwhelming and you cry. It's just it's a huge life change, but you're also going through like this really intimate problem.

You don't know what it is. And it's I think it's just astounding how you I mean it almost appears to me how you wrote your way through it and I keep just keep interjecting your win your story, but I will let you continue. No, I love it. It's good. It's it's good to be able to just also take a minute cuz when you're reliving it after so long, you do want to make sure it's going to be shared in the most impactful way that can help people.

Absolutely. So, the whole idea is not to scare women and this is something I learned throughout the process. You know how you said just before that you saw a pregnancy sorry, a birthing video when you were pregnant? Yes. It needs to happen before you get pregnant.

Yes. like not when the emotions are there and you feel trapped in the like you don't have a decision or you don't have any agency because you knew the baby your baby had to come out right but in that process while you're watching something like that it is helpful to have someone to say I'm scared about that and they say good tell me more and then you talk through your fear okay good tell me more and you actually get to unpack those fears about Why are you activated when you saw that? That gets you in a much better place and become more educated as to okay when I'm in birth if I feel this I can do that. Yes. That would make you and and also knowing because it's so foreign to so many of us.

You know, I always think about women who've had like many children. My grandmother had eight children and I you know by the last one she probably was my aunt actually tells the story that she came home, carried the baby up the stairs way down a hall, put him in a crib and then came downstairs and made like sandwiches for the whole other seven kids. Like it was just I mean she was in the hospital longer because they did that then. But it was so routine for her I guess to have all of those children for most people. or at least everyone that's had a first child, you don't know what to expect.

It's no matter what, it's going to be frightening because you're in a vulnerable position trying to make sure you're alive, the baby's alive, and you don't know what to expect and nobody's communicated. It's just it's it's just profoundly scary. And I think that it doesn't have to be as frightening as it is. Agreed. I don't think we need to treat women like idiots.

I don't think we have to, you know, in that mask of trying to protect them and not scare them. That's garbage. We are scared about a million things and get through it. It's all it's all about not thinking that we're so we can't handle it. We can handle so many things.

And so from there, I b So my best friend was an RN and I rang her crying and she came over. " A prol. So, basically, that bulge that I thought was my child's twin, hideous thought, which I now can laugh at. I feel for that poor mom back then, that sleep deprivation, the hormones, all the things. I see her.

it was a real thing. That was that pink thing that looks like a head was actually my vaginal canal collapsing on itself because my bladder, bow, uterus can no longer stay in the hammock of the pelvic floor because remember it was torn off the bone. So that was right. Okay. They slid down and even for a little while there I was telling people that my bladder was hanging out of my vagina, but it's actually not.

It's the vaginal canal. It's just pushing like it's pushing the wall. It's hard to describe it. You almost need like a sock like a visual. I wish people would come up with and I probably will in the near future like an infographic or an animation to show people what it actually is because it's not also you have a profound this has affected you profoundly but you could have a mild prolapse.

Correct. I mean, stages. Okay. Because I know and I literally just last year learned the word pesery. So I didn't even know.

" And my impression of it is almost like it is a little hammock. Is that correct? The pest. It's a It's a silicon object that's inserted into the vagina to try and hold it up. So it acts as the sling at the top.

Okay. Mhm. So let's rewind a little bit. Yes, please. So I was diagnosed with a pelvic organ prolapse to add you know insult to injury.

The amount of surgeons, doctors, eurodnamics, specialists, all the things that we saw over the next few years, we had four different diagnoses. So anywhere from a stage three to stage two with it's technical but with bilateral so both side avulsions that's the muscle torn off the bone. Okay. They kind of they and the people who assess you do it very differently. Some do it standing up.

Most do it lying down. With gravity though when you lay down it doesn't fall out of the vaginal canal. It's only when you stand up. So protocols around that are thankfully changing. So yes, you're right.

Most women who have a stage one prolapse wouldn't even know. They don't even feel it. Maybe by stage two and three, you can feel it. Heaviness, dragging, potentially something at the opening. They describe it like a tampon feeling, like a tampon falling out.

Okay, that's a good way. I would imagine that's a good way to describe it because I that's like a very specific feeling, you know. Yeah. And I think generally speaking, this is just from my education along the way. So I'm no expert.

I'm not a medical professional but from stage one and two generally you can reverse that with pelvic floor physiootherapy doing things in your lifestyle to help you for so for some people who have like chest and health conditions consistent coughing can cause a prolapse. Obviously pregnancy and child birth are the major contributing factors but women without children have prolapse. Okay. Chronic constipation as a child can also lead as a contributing factor. they do recommend weight loss for some women.

The weight of it bearing down probably because that also is not good gut health when you think about it. It's probably more like constipation or something like that. so there's lots of contributing factors that So, okay, here you go. One in two women, so 50% of our population, 50% of our female population will experience pelvic organ prolapse within their lifetime. Yeah, your face has got shock.

And that and that's only the recorded. I'm sure it's much higher. But because of the taboo and shame, women like your grandma after eight children probably lived with a stage three or four prolapse in her underpants and never said a word. And it was just like, oh, that's just part of child birth. That's just part of being a mom.

And the fact that it's that common and that many women have had this or have this condition at some point in their lives and yet it took until I was in my 40s to even hear about it is crazy. I did do an interview with a pelvic floor physical therapist last season and we were talking about she's like she's like a lot of people don't hear about it, you know, all the time, but the fact that you've actually given birth and never heard about it is a little bit odd. And I was like, I don't think I'm the only one. I don't think everybody knows what this is and I just was the only one. I think it's more common than you'd think to not have any clue what this is.

So many pelvic floor physiootherapists have to triage the emotional baggage that comes with diagnosing a prolapse because so many women have zero clue. They don't know the word. They don't understand what it means. They then blame themselves like how could I have prevented this. But then when you realize it's all these contributing factors that lead to prolapse, sometimes there's not a lot we can be doing.

Quick pause to invite you into the ROAR community. War is all about amplifying women's voices and you can be part of it. I share the messy, unfiltered, behindthe-scenes stuff in my emails, things you won't hear anywhere else. com and get in on the real talk. And hey, if this episode hit home, don't keep it to yourself.

Share it, drop a comment, or pass it to that one friend who needs to hear it. Every share helps bring more women's stories into the spotlight. All right, let's get back to the episode. And is there anything that you've learned? And in your particular case, we know that it was something very specific that caused it.

Well, yes and no, Danielle. Yes. I had 100% blamed the forceps, the child birth, the trauma, the delayed labor, all of those things at the time. As the years have gone on and I've better educated myself, pardon me, leading up to the birth, there was probably a degree of prolapse maybe already there because I was an athlete, because I had chronic coughing and constipation during chemotherapy, because I had all of these things leading up to before I was even pregnant. I probably had a bit of pelvic floor weakness as well because I used to have incontinents during races.

Okay. And I it was just dismissed as being well that's part of being an athlete. You wet your pants a little bit. It's okay. But it's not okay and it's not normal.

I have to ask you a question. This is nowhere near where I was going to ask you, but is that in your research now, and I know you're not a medical professional, but you're definitely well researched on this subject. Lived experience. It says a lot. Do you have you learned about things people can do if they are in those situations?

You know, I mean, I have a daughter in high school there. I'm sure there are athletes, even her age, that probably are having these little things and they're not thinking anything of it. They're hearing what you heard. Oh, you're an athlete or this or that. just things that are you're being made to feel like this is normal when it's a real problem and it might have a fix.

Do you have recommendations for people or are there things that people can do if they're at that kind of a stage? I think the safest way to answer this is what I would have done differently, okay, is before I was pregnant, I would have had a full pelvic health assessment by a professional. I would have gone to a physical floor therapist, PT, and I would have asked them to tell me what type of condition my pelvic floor was in because if it was tight because of running, they can do a release, a manual release to soften. So things that I've learned like that, I would have really appreciated that. And then I would have continued that during my pregnancy and birth 100%.

So that's I think that's the best way to do it is I would have seen someone much earlier. And at the time did you even know there was someone to see? Didn't you I mean I didn't know there were pelvic I went to the physio for my shoulders or my knee or my ankle but never the most important part of my body that was showing me signs that something probably wasn't quite right. I didn't know. Okay, I'm gonna go forward you because first of all, you write this book and it's since then that you've even learned even more.

But before we get to that, before we get to what happens after the book, you know, I've written articles and that are I've written a lot of articles for a lot of magazines and newspapers, but I've also written some pieces that are a little more personal. And when those come out, there's always a little bit of anxiety like, oo, somebody knows my personal stuff and I and I not just by accident. I hit publish, you know, like I did this. What was the reaction? What did you hear from women when you let this because your book is it's intimate.

You go into detail. You're very brave and you know, you share your the things you didn't know. you share what you wish you knew. You know, it's all a very vulnerable time. And even though, you know, it's years from, I guess what, you know, from the birth to when you wrote the book, it's a few years.

It was right there. I mean, you can tell it's those kids are new. They're not they're not 20. You can tell it was two under I think we had two under two. Yeah, they were they were young.

It wasn't it wasn't You were not hugely removed from what had happened. so what was what was the reaction? I'm I'm guessing based on the trajectory of where you went next that it was pretty positive, but how did you feel putting that out in the world? Okay. So, I think it's really helpful to share this story then.

With two kids under two, I was struggling physically every day because I'd been through this process of I was not I was not a candidate for surgery to have the pelvic floor fixed or reattached because mesh has been banned here in Australia. They used to insert mesh. There was a massive lawsuit in America, Johnson and Johnson. So, they no longer use it at all. That would have been the fix, per se.

Pelvic floor physio helped strengthen everything else, but it was never going to reattach the muscle. So, I had to learn how to live with this. On top of that, no pesery throughout those entire years up until last year would ever stay in because there was no shelf. There was nowhere for it to be. So, it would just slide out and be in my underpants.

It was horrendous. So, I had to learn how to reinvent myself as a as a human, as a mom, as a wife, and my career all at the same time. So, as you can imagine, I also numb to the pain with alcohol. like I don't drink anymore. I'm a I do not at all.

But at the time it led to me having a breakdown. I think we had a big night of drinking the night before. My husband was away for work. I'd gone to and going to the bathroom was really difficult with a prolapse. So you spend a lot of time in there.

I was in the toilet. I came out. I had my two kids in the kitchen. They just tipped an entire new box of corn flakes all over the floor and then put honey on top. The whole thing on the floor.

I took a photo of it actually because I just sat there on the floor crying with them. I was like, I can't live like this anymore. I can't. Because one key thing I forgot to mention, the whole time this was happening on the outside world, we were brand new parents loving life. Oh my god, we are the parents.

We're on we're walking. We're doing the thing on the inside. We're walking because even that was hurting you. Like you're like here we are. We're walking.

And you talk about your Disney photo too in the book. Yeah. Yeah. It's the things we had to do in the back end for people to see what who we were at the front end was such a lie. We were portraying this happy little family and inside it was painful every day.

So at that moment I was scrolling on my phone. I was on the kitchen floor with the kids. I was like I don't even know how to clean this up. I can't. I it was insane.

I scrolling and I saw a mentor that I had used before. He did this panning shot. He was in Bali at the beach and he's like, "Hey folks, I'm doing a an author's retreat. " And I was like, "I need to be there. " Within 3 days, I was in Bali, landed, and I said to him, "I don't even know why I'm here.

" Like, I was just kind of laughing. I just had to tell my husband, "Just trust me. I just need to go. And we'd work through an author's workshop for author's academy, I think it's called. Sorry, cuz it's an intense week.

You'd learn how to write a book in the day and at night you would write. So, picture this. I'm in my hotel room and I started writing. I started crying. Like, I couldn't stop.

It was just like this flood of tears. And I wasn't like I'm crying. It was like just watering. It was just all coming out. All of the all of the provado, all of the facade that we were happy families.

It was really raw. " At the same time, we had just been through the hospital. We were going to be part of a class action to sue the hospital because the level of care, the duty of care legally was not to standard. And this was all things that this law firm were telling me. Basically, we'd gotten to the point where they said, "If you continue and you lose, they could take your house to pay the fees.

If you win, they will probably throw an small bucket of money at you, but then that's it. " pardon me. That's like a no-win situation, right? And I was like, hang on a minute. If I was blindsided like this in my birth and we go through this, the same thing going to happen to Elsie.

No, it's not on my watch. So, we push back the lawsuit, still paying off all their fees, and decided to write the book cuz I thought, we have to change this. This has to change. this is not right. But the social justice in me was like, this has to be different for her.

There's no way I'm allowing her to go through what I went through knowing what I went through just to repeat itself. If our moms and our grandmas also went through this and didn't tell us, what a disservice to us as people birthing babies, right? Absolutely. So, I wrote the book and it was the most cathartic process ever because I started finding the words that I couldn't physically say out of my mouth to people about what happened because I was pretending it all was fine. The hospital kept telling me, "You're fine.

" I'm like, "I'm fine. " But on the inside, I was not fine. physically, mentally, emotionally, I was not fine. The book allowed me to share those moments of me not being fine. And then put that layer of hope on how could I be different to this?

Like, what do I need to do to not feel like I'm living in a total lie? How can I tell my dad that my vagina is broken and I need him to lift the pram into the car? The book gave me those words even to say to my husband. It is 3:00 in the afternoon. I can no longer stand.

Tag, you're in. My pain level. I I created this pain scale from 1 to 0 to 10. He knew once it got past 67, he's in. I'm out.

So, there are all the things that the book helped me develop. And did it help you even with like you know your community, your friends? I'm guessing if you couldn't say it to your husband, it wasn't like you were telling the women that you run into at the supermarket, you know, told no one. Right. Right.

It's So here you are like then there's a book. So I was never going to publish it. I just wanted it to be dear diary, this really shitty thing happened. The end. I'm good.

Thank you. And it was my husband that said to me, "Why are you going through all of this and then going to keep it a secret? " And that's where Brave Mama was born because mama was my grandma. I had to be really brave. It's not who I was.

I definitely would never even have said the word vagina before this book ever. Quite prudish. You don't talk about those things. I just want to tell you that I cannot relate to this what you're saying more and that actually I was married for five years well I was with my husband the time I was 23 till 31 for a long time before he was you know we were married for some of that we were dating for part of that before I found out I was pregnant with my first child and when we told my parents I actually had to leave the room because I was like oh my god I cannot even like I can't even I can't let them know. Like I can't let them know which something they obviously knew that I was so uncomfortable, you know, I just wasn't raised to have this kind these conversations out loud.

This was private and that was that. And so when you're saying how could you tell your dad? Like I'm like well you couldn't you'd have to I couldn't I actually couldn't even tell my mom and that's really sad or my sister. So, when the book was released, I had the people in my mother's group say to me, "Why didn't you tell us? We're so sorry.

" My sister say to me, "When the hell did that happen? Like, we didn't see that. " And then like almost a little bit of frustration from their point. And now I get that because they couldn't come in and support more because we weren't allowing anyone in. We were just battling through on our own which I can see but I also can I you can see both perspectives as you know you can now.

Yeah but it's I think it was so brave of you to do but that's not all you did. So you wrote the book but then you went on to do something else and you created an entire community. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, it almost came organically. And I know that word is overused, but it's genuinely true in this instance because I put the book out there and right, done.

I've fixed child birth. Not going to happen to Elsie. I'm done. I'm good. And then you get Yeah.

And then you and then it's crickets like it's silence. " And then I would get these DMs on Facebook because obviously I needed to promote the book. You write a book, you need to sell the book. It's never going to get you a Ferrari in the driveway. But it does it was I was at the same time remember I couldn't go back to my six figure career, right?

So I was trying to reinvent myself and thinking well if I could sell a book I could maybe still contribute to the family or to the immense expenses I was going through for physical therapy. All the pes I tried all the appointments come with a big price tag. So that's what I thought and then two things happened. you never get rich selling a book and or you can't even pay a bill selling books and it did not change child birth. So I was really disappointed.

I was like damn it. What I did realize and this is the organic part by putting it on Instagram people started DMing me women and new moms saying this happened to me too. Oh my god. How did we what? and this was my story and the same things and the similar like some of them were almost verbatim this happened first then I'm like okay this is systemic this is a and that's when I found the government policy that states to basically make women push until something happens do not let them have cesarian sections are expensive so then I was like right I dug my heels in and I realized We actually needed to have these taboo conversations because if you are not having them within your inner circle of your sister and your mom, who can you have them with?

Hence the birth of the podcast, the Low Down with Brave Mama, because I was like, we need to start talking. If you want action, you need to talk. That's when the podcast came out. And I allowed people to hear and feel seen, heard, and supported to know that they weren't alone. And these things are really, really common.

I never use the word normal. It's not normal to go through that. It's just common. If we don't keep talking about it, if we don't advocate, it's going to remain super common. one thing I want to share with you, if that's okay, that I'm most proud of here in Australia, this all led to a birth trauma inquiry from our government to take a look under the hood as to what this policy was doing.

The policy has been updated and changed. Could still do more in my opinion, but it was a start. So the book was the seed of change that needed to happen beyond the book. other conversations we have in the podcast and at the same time we created a Facebook community which is now hitting nearly 5,000 women globally who are all living with pelvic organ prolapse and it allows them to have a safe space to talk to other people who have it because quite often for example obviously full privacy not naming anyone but someone has just experienced immense pain getting a pes fitting from their GP P. If the GP is a male and they've never lived with a prolapse, unless they're exceptional, please go and see a pelvic floor physiootherapist or an obstitrician who understands the mechanics of a vagina.

GPS are general practice. Like they put the G in general. They're not specialized. You need to have the care and support of a specialist when you're dealing with this. How has the community itself resonated with other women?

or is it now? I mean, I know it. So, it starts off it's it's very you centered. It's your book. It's your story that is kind of the impetus and the seed for this, but now it almost seems like it's something I read on your Facebook page, you know, there's moderators that it's grown into its own entity.

Feedback that you're getting from other women who are a part of this. It's funny because I'm actually take took a step back from everything in it because sometimes living in trauma space, it's difficult to remain there when you are trying to heal on many different levels and you get pulled back in. I'm a big feeler, Danielle. Every time I get a DM with a birthing story, I think about that mom for days and weeks. When it's five a day, it naturally affects who I am with my kids in my life.

I get quite I get down easily and I want to fix everyone and I want to help the world. So, I had to put a layer of protection at some point to be able to move forward. And this is why we have our team of moderators to support. I was just in there the other day and I the women in there that is I mean anywhere from anywhere from 90 years old down to 19. So there's a full gamut of aged women menopause, premenopause, birth, all the things saying thank you for this space.

It's exactly what I needed. I didn't have anywhere to go. I don't I couldn't even like similar to us. They couldn't even tell their friends. A it and it's and it's astonishing too because you know even when you're saying go get a peser fitted or by a man or a either a specialist or a woman somebody who understands the mechanics of a vagina that seems like the kind of space where you know you're not dispensing medical advice but you are you are a community.

It's people talking and getting advice just like any kind of issue that you might have whether it's, you know, a class reunion or your neighborhood watch on Facebook, it's it's that group of women able to kind of give each other their lived experience type of advice. Yes. Because even if a doctor and I that's a really big generalization by the way. I don't mean that all males are not going to be able to support you. And I just want to preface that because my male obstitrician for my second birth was phenomenal.

That's awesome. No, and there are there are great but I would say if you think it's not getting better, try another direction 100%. And so I do think that once it I lost my train of thought because we were just talking. Sorry. Go ahead.

Keep going. That's okay because I've also lost mine. So, I'm going to pivot. This is permenopause now, isn't it? Hello.

That is one of the things I was going to mention that I recently helped host I don't know if you have it. I helped moderate like a panel. It was I guess in November. so, it wasn't that recent, almost a year ago, but it was about menopause. And what's the what is the movie?

There's a big movie. It's a documentary about menopause kind of going all worldwide. It's by Tamson Fidel and it's it's a great it's a it's a great documentary about all the things we don't know about our bodies and all the things that were sort of poo pooed or I'm just going to give you a completely random example. I've had hip pain for two years. I've gone to the orthopedic surgeon.

I've gone to physical therapy. I've taken Advil. I've slept in different positions. I've done all this stuff. " And I'm like, "What?

" I mean, it would have saved me. I'm looking up Lyme disease. I was looking up bone cancer. I'm like I'm in so much pain that my mind is just spiraling without just you know women's lived experience is really important especially when our research and I don't know how it is in Australia but in the US you know we're woefully behind in women's health research compared to men's which brings me to under representation and what I wanted to ask you is why do you think these things are so under represented you know women's health birth any type of because I don't It's funny when I started this podcast I was like working in fem are you familiar with the term fem because I was I'll just for anybody who doesn't know it's sort of the overarching umbrella term for women's healthcare which is sort of silly but it started out with like period trackers and stuff on your phone digital component and now a lot of things are under femech that maybe don't even know that they're under feme. But and why am I saying this?

" And I was like, "But it's not just health. " And so therefore, now I just talk to women who are innovating in some way to make the lives better for other women. but so much under representation. So, I was just curious what you see personally from your lived experience as kind of that gap there. Is it more training for midwives?

Is it more training? Is it is it like a political level thing? What you've talked about the bill? Is it or the law? Is it more soon to be moms?

Is it a combination of all of those? Where do you personally feel like the work has to go? It's multifaceted. You're right. There's not one area.

If I could talk to number one, research in pelvic organ prolapse is not sexy. It's longitudinal. And so most researchers and fellows, they want to do their research. They want to get in. What is this throat thing?

It's it's it's completely catching all the way across the ocean because I'm doing it. help us. The research is not sexy. For a fellow to do research on pelvic organ prolapse, it's a minimum of 10 years. I've been told that researchers don't want that time frame.

They want something to they want to go in, they want to fix it, they want to prove it and then move on. So research in women's health is also a gender issue because as you said we put more research dollars into blue pills for men's erectile dysfunction and all the things. The government here in Australia actually covers men's health, men's pelvic health things way more than women's pelvic health. So, if I need to go and see a eurog gynecologist, I have to pay like $350 and all the things, but I think it's shifting thanks to women talking about it. The next layer is I gave a keynote to a room full of midwives and then the entire 8hour journey home couldn't stop thinking about how could I have done that better.

I told my story and I thought at the end what why did I want to tell them that because they're stuck in the middle between the government policy and the people they're trying to support the best they can. I actually think it's their education. So it's not them per se like you said the training and education around pelvic floor like the mechanics of it I think would be a lot more helpful. I spoke to a physiootherapist and she said pelvic floor in their education they get about a day that's it you have to go and train after being a 4-year physiootherapist train education to learn specific pelvic floor physiootherapy they get a day yeah or it's a subject don't quote me on that but it's minimal like it's nothing compared to the entire learning about how to be a physiootherapist. So that needs to shift because we shouldn't have to make people train on top of something special and have to go back and through because it's not it's not really an incentive to have to go back and learn again about pelvic floor.

Right. Right. Especially if it's another 10 years to you know there is no incentive. give people a pathway. Do you want to treat the general public?

Do you want to treat pelvic floor? And let them do their thing. Anyway, that's my opinion. I also think it's the conversations we have at our table with the women who we trust. We're not we're not having those.

We're not because we're not giving ourselves time to do that anymore. We're not sitting around with a pot of tea anymore. It's a It's a takeaway coffee, espresso. Quick, quick, quick, quick, move on to the next thing. Move on to the next thing.

We're not giving ourselves permission to just sit and be with other women and get to that layer of conversation that goes beyond the hi, how are you? Yeah, good. How are you? When's your baby due? Oh, D.

And it stays at that surface level. That is really interesting. And also so true as we get, you know, I feel like we're further and further away from sharing a pot of tea and all the things that we are, you know, all the great things that came about with the advent of the internet. And look at this. Look what we can do.

I mean, there are great developments and it's that is amazing, but the things we've lost are, you know, I think we're just starting to it's like the tip of the iceberg what we're realizing, you know, what we've lost. in terms of what you shared and even how you're saying these conversations, I think it takes besides your comfort, it still takes a lot of bravery to be that vulnerable, to share your intimate details. You know, you could you didn't know when you wrote the book. " And people are like, "I don't know what the heck she's talking about. " I mean, it could have remained crickets.

5,000 women that almost 5,000 women that are in your group now. What if they didn't exist? It still benefited you to go out there and to share this. Do you have any advice for women who feel they have a story to share but feel like it's either too much? You know, there's always women who are too much or too personal that are just afraid of being that vulnerable.

I think there's a lot I'd say the majority of women in that group would not have the courage to talk about this outside the group. So, they certainly wouldn't write a book about it. But it's funny because I don't see myself as being that brave. It's almost like it's a different person like that girl over there. So, like for example, when I finished the manuscript and I had to send it to the publisher, I read it through one last time.

I think it took me 4 hours and I just went sat back and I was like, "Oh, that poor girl. " Like, it wasn't me. I disassociated from who I was to who she was. like a little bit of cognitive dissonance. I like that just and I think probably you need that but then but then it came out and people were responding so you have to you have to darn it.

Yeah, that's a lot. Are you having people in your group me saying things like this being more vocal about it in even their personal lives based on you know your example of bravery? And I know you don't I'm sorry if it's making you feel uncomfortable because I know you Yeah, that's fine. Consider yourself this brave person, but you have to but you are and I feel like we have to let women know when we find them brave and we admire them because we've got a lot of talk in our heads. There's a lot of matter.

There are a lot of floors with cornflakes on them and I think it's, you know, you should know that was very brave of you. And not only are you physically brave because I feel like we didn't mention this at all, you actually went back for a second child, you actually had another baby after this experience and they're both wonderful, but so you're not just but you're physically brave, but you also were brave with your vulnerability and your willingness to share. So, thank you. M that is one of the biggest questions I get asked by women who have their prolapse on their first birth is like how did you go and have another baby how did what were the mechanics of even falling pregnant all of those things and I've done a lot of one-on-one coaching sessions for that privately just because not everyone is comfortable to talk about it in a group setting. I've written articles, we've got podcast episodes on it that explains the whole thing.

You don't have to buy the book to read the book to find that out. So, if anyone's listening and they really want to find out how to have a second baby, there was a process that I educated myself every minute of the day. I think my whole pregnancy I was reading, digesting content, talking to talking to so many people, midwives. Oh, one last thing I just I think it's important to add with that multifaceted layer of why we're not getting further down the road is also with the gender issue between doctors and midwives. I learned the power play that happens behind the scenes that we the patients don't see.

The treatment from men in birthing suites to female midwives is immense. And I was very grateful that I had midwives open up and share this with me. So I understood the misogyny that happens in medical field cuz I was I had no idea that is a huge thing that will need to shift for child birth to again they're pitted against each other that when they work together amazing outcomes can happen but the power play between men and women is still very prominent and I was shocked and saddened to know that it is because it's like you feel like it's the mo, you know, it could be such an empowering experience to have a baby and there's no place for that type of dynamics in that room. You know, there's no room for ego. You're welcome.

This is my dog. Pardon me for just one second. He's not gonna stop. Hold on one second. So Stephanie, I want to get back to your transition though.

Now started off as an educator. You switched into basically a total advocate and activist really for birthing in Australia, but now you've shifted sh again. Can you tell us a little bit about that? What started it and why you've decided to do it besides what you mentioned about kind of carrying that mental weight of everybody's story? because I think that would be a lot and could kind of be a good impetus to shift.

But why did you go in the direction that you're in? I think because ultimately I still love teaching and I think like any household having more like having the ability to have more than one income is important with children when you have goals and going from six figures to zero was really difficult for everyone. A lot of plus figures. Yes. It was a life adjustment.

but then I found this passion for podcasting. So, while I was doing it, I would leave an interview and I would be really lit up. My whole body would be alive and I'm like, I love this. I love talking. And I was like, this makes sense.

All my school reports when I was little, I was like, Stephanie talks too much. Stephanie talks too much. I was there for the social. So, I think just being able to continue conversations, but then I was having people, it actually all started with someone reached out to me. She was a friend and she said, "I'm starting a podcast.

" I think it was. " And I just rattled it off. And she's like, "Oh, that sounds easy. " And then the next person come along. I am going to be launching a book.

I have no funds. How do I crowdsource or crowdfund? " And then it's kind of like she was born. I just love helping people. I ended up being like the cupid, like the connector between the brand and the podcaster or the brand and the author and say, "You have so much to offer them.

They have what you need. You have what they need. do a swap. It all came from a place of necessity when I had no money to pay my producer. So I had to partner with the right brands that made sense to my audience that they were getting a value, I was getting supported, the brand was getting supported.

So I always look at it as like a winwinwin for everyone and it just made sense. It goes beyond an ad read. " Very strategically, I used all of my educa background and education to make sure that the experience for the listener was the best it could possibly be, which would include just one talking about one brand at a time. if there was something and it had to be helpful to women living with prolapse. For example, period underpants.

A lot of women with prolapse can no longer keep a tampon in. Oh my goodness. Okay. So, the evolution of period underwear made sense because pads are uncomfortable. They make you feel like you're a teenager.

All the things. They're not sustainable. So, working with them made sense to my audience. It made sense to me. and it made sense to the brand that where that's just where it came from.

And then all of a sudden it's like popcorn and then this person and then that person and that person needed help. So podcast expert lab was born because I was also helping people launch their podcast. All of the prep work, the launch plan, how to find a partner, I just love it and I can do it sitting at home. physically while I can't do my education job I can manage this at home when I can depending on my body all of those things so that flexibility is there and do you are you like do you work with you work you show people how to work values aligned like how to find people that have their same values do you also I'm guessing you get you know You have the luxury, I want to say, because you really know your stuff, of being a little bit choosy about who you choose to work with. I mean, I guess you're not going to be, we're not going, yes.

You don't, you know, it needs to. Yeah. In the beginning, I was just happy to help anyone, but then some people who were coming through, I wasn't values aligned with their show. So, what they were talking about, I was like, "Yeah, good for you. But good luck because they were in it for the wrong reasons.

They were in it just to monetize. I want people with more of a purpose and a passion who are there to help others. So, it needs to be more purpose- driven. And businesses can do that, too. Don't get me wrong.

I've worked with some business owners who have a mission to really support people. I'm happy to help those people every day, all day. I love how you know and I don't want to be like make lemonade from lemons because I you know it's all part of your story and your evolution and I like how you have got like chapter 1 2 3 4 5 and you're like to describe the different kind of how you see the sections of your life but it there's really such a throughine you know I mean you have just been you just evolving and evolving and doing these things and it's awesome to see what you've kind of created post this experience because it's something I mean and everybody should know prior to us hitting record 62 times because of the dog barking we were you were giving me tips even now that are so helpful so if anybody is thinking about doing a podcast you want to reach out to Stephanie and if the last thing I because I don't want to keep you any longer you've been so generous with your time if you could envision just one big shift in how women's health stories are treated in the next 5 years. What would you hope that is? Oh, I love this.

That we are having conversations and I would say we I'm already doing it. For example, my daughter is nine turning 10. She knows what her vagina is, her vulva. She knows her pelvic floor. She knows she can't be constipated and sit on a toilet and push.

I've taught her how to, it's called moo poo, how to, if she is constipated, because kids eat candy and sugar, how to not push and strain. Straining is the worst. So, if I'm a child at 10, she knows all of this. The conversation's already started. So, that 5-year plan is in action for the next 5 years, just as we did with breast cancer.

So, in the media, the word breast wasn't allowed to be spoken about up until we got cancer in them. And then we're allowed to say breast cancer. Like ridiculous laughing, but it's so true. In the next 5 years, I want us to be talking about pelvic organ prolapse in the same way. So, even in that fem space, there's a huge gap when it comes to prolapse.

women's health week they often skip they talk about menopause permenopause and all the things prolapse is not given a spotlight but it needs to there's and especially knowing how common it is I mean it's one thing there are always going to be you know what they call the orphan diseases where there's only a thousand people in the whole world and that's absolutely terrible and I hope we study them but there it's going to be less of a it's just going to drive less of the conversation because it affects less people. When you're saying one in two women and women outnumber men on the planet, there are 51% more women than you or 51% women, 49%. How are we not discussing this? That's 25% of the population for sure is having a problem. In the next 5 years, I would like and I know that I by the way, full disclosure, I'm not championing this.

I was not the first person to do this in the US. Sher Palm, all hat tip to her, she's got a foundation called APOPS, the American Association of Pelvic Organ Prolapse. She's been banging this drum for decades. I want to see her get to the point where it's in mainstream media. She's the best person who talks to this.

She lives and breathes this. She also has a support group and we've worked together on a couple of things, but I want to see her really make that massive dent she's been working so hard at. The second thing is purseries are finally evolving. Like hallelujah, a team of young engineer women, I've met them multiple times in the US, have created a new pesery that actually works. Peseries hadn't changed.

They used to be pomegranates and potatoes. Like women used to use them. This is how long this has been going on. This is not a new thing. Right.

Right. In fact, that's just even more proof. It's been around forever and there's nothing happening to make it better. So, young women, female engineers like that who are creating these new peseries, getting them to market need spotlight. Sherry them like all the pieces of the puzzle are just sitting in the peripheral and we need to bring it together with a massive bang so people I want everyone to know what a prolapse is, how to prevent it, how to treat it, how to manage living with it, all of the things.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for the work you're doing on behalf of all women and also for educating me on it for anybody who's buying your book. I mean, even getting it from the library if they want to. It's just invaluable information for anybody who's got a uterus and who wants to kind of be informed if they're going I mean I'm done having babies so that's not that part's not going to happen but I have a daughter I have a son I don't know what's going to happen in their lives and I think it's best to just be informed and also thank you for being a role model to other young women because it takes enough people being brave about the same subject before everybody, you know, it took one person over here saying breast, breast. They were whispering it, you know, saying their code words and finally everybody just talks about their breasts.

In fact, it's a movement. Interviewed a friend of mine. She's got a project called the Fondal Project and you know, it could sound very like edgy and elicit, but it's for breast cancer awareness and that's how she's helping to do her part to bring it to the table. But these kinds of this kind of language just wouldn't have flown even 15 20 years ago, you know. So funny story to finish for me.

So the reason I went down the self-publishing route is because the publishing houses wanted to remove the word vagina from my front cover. And I was like, hell no. You can't say the day my pelvic floor broke. Everyone's like, what? Who cares about that?

No one cares about that. the day my vagina broke is it's shocking and you need to be shocked to find out more. Like I want people to be like, "Oh my god, what is that? " And then go and find out and be educated. And I love that you brought up for your son because yes, I have a daughter, but I also have a son who this is just as important for because at some point in his life, he's going to be caring for his mommy, his sister, his partner, potentially whoever in his life.

He also needs to know about this. Absolutely. We teach him too. Eats the pmenopause drum. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. " And I'm like, "No, really, it is. It's all the things. " But thank you so much for your time and thank you for being so gracious about the interruptions.

I appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. That's it for today's episode of Roar. Huge thanks to my guest Steph Thompson for joining me and for the powerful work she's done to help women step into their full selves.

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