The Unexpected Power of Pie, Memory, and Human Connection with Beth Howard

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR2t6zplq2Y

What if the smallest, simplest things…are the ones that carry us through the hardest moments?

In this episode of Roar, Danielle Davies sits down with writer and pie baker Beth Howard for a conversation that starts with something light, and becomes something much deeper.

Because at first glance, pie doesn’t feel like a serious topic.

But in Beth’s world, it’s anything but.

What began as baking became something else entirely—a way to process loss, connect with others, and move through moments that didn’t have easy answers.

Danielle and Beth explore what it looks like to turn something simple into something meaningful, and how everyday acts can become a form of care, connection, and healing.

Together, they talk about

🔥 How something as simple as baking can take on deeper meaning

🎤 The connection between creativity and grief

🧠 Why working with your hands can help process difficult emotions

🌿 The role of ritual in a world full of technology

💥 Letting go of perfection and focusing on presence

📣 How sharing something small can create connection

👑 The accessibility of simple acts—no expertise required

⚡ What it means to do something when there are no words

Beth’s perspective reminds us that we don’t always need big solutions—sometimes we just need something to do with our hands, our attention, and our care.

This conversation is for anyone who has ever needed a way to move through something they couldn’t quite explain.

🔑 Key Takeaways

Simple acts can carry deep meaning.

Creativity can be a tool for processing grief.

You don’t need expertise to create something meaningful.

Ritual can provide grounding during difficult times.

Connection often comes through sharing small things.

Listen to ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture & Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. New conversations every Tuesday.

Full Transcript

This transcript was generated automatically and lightly cleaned up. It may contain small errors.

It's a community gathering event. People are lonely. They're isolated. They want to slow down. They don't know how.

And this is a chance for them to say, "You know what? " We must have had at least 40 pies. That was Beth Howard and this is Roar. Hi everybody. This is Danielle Davies from Roar.

Today we're talking to Beth Howard. Beth was a journalist for more than 20 years telling other people's stories when in 2001 she made a surprising pivot leaving a lucrative web producing job to bake pies. That decision eventually led to the world needs more pie website, four books, and now PIEOWA, a piece of America, her first documentary film. PA has been screening around the country, spreading largely through word of mouth, and has already earned the best food film award at the San Antonio Film Festival, the audience award at the Silicon Beach Film Festival, an award and an award of merit from the Impact Docs Awards. What stands out most in the film isn't how pie is just food, it's memory, ritual, comfort, and connection, and how often it's women doing that work.

Today's conversation explores why nourishment and storytelling so often fall to women, what that labor really represents, what happens when women choose it on their own terms, and of course, pi. Welcome, Beth. Hi. Thanks for having me. We're I'm thrilled that you're here, and I you know, obviously have done my background stuff and my research into you and I'm and have obviously watched PA, which I highly recommend.

But tell me, you spent decades as a journalist beforehand. What originally drew you to pie as a subject that you could center and document? Yeah. And not just eat. [laughter] Yeah.

Yeah. No, I mean I think it goes back to what you said was, you know, the dot job that I left as a web producer and I was so tired of working behind a computer and creating virtual worlds for outdoor adventure websites. I'm like, no, go outside, you know, for real. Like, don't just look at don't have some simulated experience on your computer. you should really go outside.

So, I got really that didn't like sit well with me philosophically. So, I told my bosses that I wanted to quit and I wanted to go do something with my hands. I wanted to like engage my senses, do something tactile. And I said, I blurted out, I just want to go make pie. And that's what I ended up doing.

So, it was just kind of weird how you could just put an idea out there and then it happens. I left San Francisco and moved down to Los Angeles where I had been living previously during my journalism years. And I walked into a little cafe in Malibu that was supposed to be known for its pie. It was actually brand new. They were supposed to have good pie and they didn't have any when I walked in.

So I said I would make it for them. And next thing you know, I'm not only making pie for a year there. It's like set me on this whole crazy pie journey of books and now film and blog for that. It's crazy because it's like it's pie, you know, and you think about like any kind of thing. I'm looking around because I'm like it's just as common as anything, you know, like a candle or this or that, but it's you've because it is actually so much more than that.

And you but you've identified that it's so much more than that. You know, it's not it is as simple and everyday as a candle or a bookmark or a pen or the things that we use in our homes, but it's so much more than that because it's the experience of the making and the nourishing and the community and the gathering, but that you identified at that at the earliest stage. Well, it was also like you said in the introduction, memory because my dad loved banana cream pie. like that was a thing all through his life, all throughout my childhood. You know, he's is the my first pie memory is having banana cream pie with him at in fact the canteen lunch in the alley which is this diner in Ottumwa, Iowa that's featured in my film.

my film opens up with that because you know it's my first pie memory might not start there and yeah and I just all through our life like and now even he's he passed away in 2017 and when you know when I miss him I go and have a piece of banana cream pie or just to celebrate him or just I don't know I can't eat a piece of banana cream pie without almost like you know swallowing tears with it because I just miss him so much. So, you know, it's an emotional thing and I found that is true for pretty much everybody across the board. Crazy enough, you know, like people I interviewed in the film were actually breaking down in tears on camera because it, you know, this I'm talking about a pie memory evoked so much emotion and so much love, [clears throat] you know, that's what it comes down to. And I think you captured that so well in the film. I'm just curious like why do you think and of course I'm I mean I think I know the answer to this but I want to get your words obviously.

Why do you think feeding and nourishing especially through something like pie which is and you know in your film I'm get letting everybody know in the film Beth actually shows that pie isn't you know there are savory pies and there's meals as pies and talks even about different cultural interpretations of pies like egg rolls and things like that. but in terms of the American view of pie as like a dessert and something special and like the add-on to your meal, why do you think feeding and nourishing, especially through that kind of special thing of pie has historically been women's work? I just got asked that the other day and then I kind of argued and said, well, there's lots of men making pie now, too, you know. So, that's true. That's something that I learned by making the film is that there are also a lot of men that make pie and it is, you know, associated with like at least in Iowa with the church ladies, not church men, but the ladies, you know, and you know, the farm wives, housewives, you know, pies are taken to fundraisers, pots, it's it is usually the women.

I mean, that's what we see face value, but if you dig a little deeper, there's also a lot of men making the pie. But you know it was like back like in Iowa. I think what makes it so sort of closely associated with Iowa is the farm wives like they would I heard a lot of stories about oh yeah you know my grandma used to take pies out to the field and feed the farmers at lunchtime. You know women don't do that anymore generally. [laughter] The guys come home for lunch make their own damn lunch you know.

But back in the day, you know, that was the thing. The women made the pies and took them out to the field and fed the men and or field, but any office or whatever. You know, that was like the trade-off, right? Like you're financial, you're giving me financial care, I'm supporting you with the emotional nourishing care, and food that you love, food that makes you happy, food that gets you excited, you know, like, and that's the thing, though. " And they love it.

And you know they love it, you know, and then you see them happy that makes you happy and it's just this like really beautiful warm exchange of kindness and generosity like I know you like this pie so I made it for you, right? And then it makes everybody's day better. Like the farmers in the field for example, if they're butts off out there and then somebody brings in the pie, it's like you win some bonus points for that. Quick pause because if you're listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind of person I write for. I send out a Substack newsletter where I go a little deeper, more personal stories, behind the scenes thoughts, and honestly, some of the things we don't always say out loud here.

com. com. I'd love to have you there. And now back to your regularly scheduled podcast. You talked about too the effort like that means something.

And I always for me, so I didn't grow up with a lot of pie. I mean, I love pie and I do have a great pie story, but I did not grow up like my mom is half Italian, my dad's or my mom's Italian, my dad's Irish, so I grew up with like all the steak and potatoes dishes of the world and like a million different Italian cookies. And so like we have a special Italian cookie that we make every year and it reminds me of my grandmother and this is her rolling pin and we do all these things. and it's the labor of those cookies. Some people don't even like the cookies, but it's the amount of work.

And I think even like with pie, right? It's it's the effort. And I always relate it to mix tapes. Remember mixtapes? Like if somebody made you a good mixtape, that was effort.

Like that took time. You're hitting start and stop. You're waiting for the right song. You might call in to the DJ to have them play a song. So these things are transformed from just food or things to like a form of care.

When you were making PIEOWA, did you see that more than you already see it doing like cookbooks and you know serving pie? Did you already start to Yeah. Yeah, that [clears throat] was what the whole film was really about was showing care for others, you know, ultimately. And so, yes, I mean, I was just inundated with all those stories of goodness and kindness and generosity, you know, people making pie specifically just to give it away, you know, for Thanksgiving or you know, like I said, for the fundraisers, you see all these people coming together to volunteer to make pies, you know, to support their town. So yeah, I mean every I think every single story had some sense of care for others in it and absolutely and I think that's what makes the film so meaningful to people why it's resonating because it's like no if we would all just do one thing to show somebody else that we care you know that our world would be in a much better place like and I mean I'm quoting somebody else from the film who said that but I believe that also you know it's just it doesn't take much.

It just like go make somebody a pie. And then also, as you saw in the film, the food editor from Better Homes and Gardens, you know, the Red Plaid cookbook. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. " And I love how she did the air quotes, you know. " Oh, yeah.

I love that. [laughter] Right. It doesn't matter. The fact is you're going in the kitchen and making somebody for somebody else, you know, to show them that you care. So, it's a it's just it's a simple thing you can do and it's effort, but it's a it's effort, but it's not like a tremendous amount.

It's not like building a h like it's not building a house. You don't have to give everything. You know, part of the reason that I started this podcast is because I wanted to show that women the different ways women support other women and that it does like that advocacy doesn't mean you have to just show up somewhere with a picket sign. And you know, there are a million ways like I hear women and they'll say, I want to make a change, but I don't want to run for office. I'm like, well, there's a million things you could do.

You could write a poem. You could bake a pie. You could do there's so many ways to knit a red hat. Yes, you could. Yes, you could do that.

[laughter] There's so many way that's your next that's your next documentary. There's so many ways [laughter] to make a a difference in people's lives in a positive way. And I just thought the way you portrayed it and showing these ladies and like these everybody has to watch this film. Showing these ladies and like these tables just full of pies and like sometimes they're whole pies. Sometimes you see the slices and people coming up and I'm like and there [snorts] I'm getting off topic, but I want to say also I loved the idea and I do feel like this is a very I mean yes, there are men who cook.

Don't get me wrong. My own husband is a great cook and he makes he's been making dinner a lot and I'm very happy about it. but he's not necessarily resourceful in the way where I'm like, "Well, there's a little bit of this. we should do this. " But then I saw it.

It kind of almost reminded me of a rice pudding, like the way that it looked. " [laughter] but the idea that, you know, these are things that were plentiful when there wasn't fresh fruit. you know, [snorts] you had dried grapes and you had sour cream. It's dairy farms. Like they made do and learning to make do.

And could you speak to that at all about women's ability or especially anybody who's like a nurturer or caregivers's ability to kind of adapt and just use the resources available, which I feel like is just so much of pie, right? And that's that's what some of the older women in the film talked about is that, you know, that's all they had in the cupboard back then or they didn't want to like they like you said, they didn't want to be wasteful. That's why the sour cream raisin pie has a meringue top because they used the egg yolks and the pudding and then so they saved the egg whites for the top. I Yeah, I mean that was I They didn't have money. They didn't have grocery stores, you know?

They didn't have what do you call the Amazon Prime or Door Dash or whatever [laughter] the hell, you know? Like they I that's one of the things I talk about a lot when I teach pie classes. I'm like, you know, the pioneers made pie, right, in their wagon trains, traveling across our continent without refrigeration, without big ovens. You know, they had Dutch ovens. They cooked over campfires and put coals on top of the lid.

And you know, I think the pie hearkens back to that, you know, of really having to make do, not just with ingredients, but with everything. Like, you know, we have these recipes now that are so fussy, and it irks me cuz it's like, you don't have to do it that way. Our ancestors didn't do it that way. They didn't have all these conveniences that we have. So, let's try to just keep it simple.

And I feel like there's a real lesson in that, you know, from making do with what you have. you know, if you I don't know, there's always a substitute, right? And anything can go in a pie crust. So that's that's the other thing about pie. Absolutely anything.

Sweet, savory, any combination of anything. So this the versatility of it is really lends itself to improvisation or you know using whatever you have on hand and I think I don't know I'm I'm practical that way myself. So I don't like it when people preach about you have to use this fancy brand of butter or you know your fruit has to be just so and it's like no it doesn't you know like go pick the apples in your backyard even if they have worms in them you know you cut around them that's what we do and you know and living here on a farm in Iowa it's it's well with the people I live with around me it is like that you know they are still making do with things which I appreciate I mean the nearest grocery store is a half hour away. That's not easy to get to when you're when you have, you know, a foot of snow on the ground. Yeah.

Or when you need just like a simp, you know, you forget two things. Like you got to adapt. Yeah. You're going to have to find something else. So, and you know, I've been living I've been living in rural Iowa now since 2010.

So I've really learned different a different way of life you know in terms of shopping and [clears throat] making do improvising all that. So going about this is like way esoteric and not at all what I planned to ask but you know you have such a unique cultural viewpoint your lens is because you're back and forth between Iowa where you're on a farm and LA where that is not what people think of when they think of LA like they're not thinking of farms and you weren't really and you were in San Francisco. So even just like in this cultural moment that we're happening to have right now, which is obviously a uniquely terrifying time in 2026, how can things like as simple as pie help? And I hope I'm not making that sound too simple because I don't mean it to be like too simple, but I feel like there's so much running and we have so much focus on the problems of the world and rightfully so cuz it's a hot mess. But I feel like there's nothing very slow going on, you know, like I intended to send a letter to somebody this morning and I got a text before I got it back and I actually was going to write a handwritten note.

It was a thank you note and somebody texted the thank you from somebody else. So, I just joined on. I'm like, well, you're right. Forget the note. I'm going to just cut to the chase here and thank you.

But I was like, the note would have been so much more meaningful. You can still write the note. I can still write the note. And I probably should still write the note. I would I would still write the note.

And that's like a homemade pie. And people appreciate it. And it really means something. And even if you already said thank you via text, doesn't mean you can't still write the note. And that's what I was going to say like culturally do you feel like it's these simple things that can help us or how much do you think they can help us?

Well, I have a very recent example. I just did a screening in Newport Beach, California, the land of yachts and quite a lot of wealth, you know, and I was really nervous that people wouldn't come, that they wouldn't have that like deep appreciation for pie, you know, this is a film about pie in Iowa. Why would they come? So, we sold so many tickets and people showed up with homemade pies to share with others after the film. So, that's become this part of this phenomenon of PA where it's a community gathering event.

People are lonely. They're isolated. They want to slow down. They don't know how. and this is a chance for them to say, "You know what?

" So, we had like I don't even know how many we must have had at least 40 pies. yeah, homemade people showed up with their little baskets and I was so surprised and so excited about how the screening went because I don't know, people showed up that were like, "Well, my grandparents were from Iowa. my great grandpa. So, there was some like Iowa root thing and it just brought out something in them of like and also by the way when I'm in LA and I tell people well my you know I also live on a farm in Iowa. Oh, you should see their face.

Oh, that just sounds so great, you know? So, I just feel like there's this longing for more simplicity. And I feel like I've been able to convey that not only just by making the film and showing it, but these screenings that are bringing people together in real life and sharing pie afterward, like hanging around. They don't just take off after the film ends. They stay, they eat pie, they everyone's got a pie story.

You already told me that you've got a pie story, so I'm waiting for it, but everyone's got a pie story. It's amazing. And it's just been [snorts] so I don't know like life affirming you know and people are just full of compliments when they come out because they just oh this made me feel so good this gives me hope for humanity it just reminds you that there's kindness in the world and you know and there's a full range of people represented in this film young to old every ethnicity you know I it just shows you the the broad scope of this one subject of this one dish that connects us, you know, and it's something like we can all agree on in a time where we're so divided, but well, guess what? We all still love pie. Let's get together and eat pie and share pie and that's it.

I mean, there's it's crazy you have to you actually say that because it's like I was just reading an opinion piece. I want to say it was David Brooks. I think he was I think it's him who was an opinion columnist with the New York Times and he's a and he's retiring and he was saying that over the course of his career one of the things that alarmed him you know there was good and bad but one of the things that alarmed him is there was there is such a disconnect right now of alignment in terms of good or bad. This is but like it might be as easy as pie but it's like if pi is one universal truth and we can say okay let's just start here we all like pie some kind of pie right like we all like pie now like what's the next thing we have in common you know it's just it that's why I didn't mean to make the question so big but it or so heavy but I feel like even with this kind of simple conversation it's so much more than that, especially now, you know, I feel like you really managed to convey that in the film as well. Well, it was important to me and I'm glad it came through, you know, and it was like these are other people's words, you know, everything I would have liked to have said, but it's so much stronger coming from this whole assortment of people.

But I would add one more thing. I mean, first of all, I think this is a really important subject. But a little aside from that, because I always say pi is a metaphor, you know, so like if we can all agree on pi, maybe we can agree on find something else we can agree on. as a starting point, but also in teaching pie classes, people are really afraid to make pie crust. They think it's really hard and they're they're just they're fearful.

And so when I'm terrified. So when I teach a class and I'm really strict, I can walk around with my rolling pin. If you if you overwork that door dough, I'm gonna, you know, I'm you're gonna you're gonna be sorry. I got [laughter] not, right? Right.

So, so the pies always turn out because I am so vigilant, you know, I'm just keeping a really close eye on everybody and they all the all the pies all have 100% success record. And my thing is if you can get past your fear of making a pie, then maybe you can get past the fear of doing something else. That's like the entry. And then you go, well, I made a pie. Maybe I could also do, you know, fill in the blank.

Right. So that's to your point of if we can all agree on pie, maybe we can find other things to agree on. But if we can get over our fear of making pie dough, we can also get over fear of other things. So it's that's why pi just keeps bringing me back. It's such a great metaphor for so many things.

It's a it's a great teaching tool. It's a great I don't know, just it's it's a great symbol of so many things. Well, and I feel like you know, as anybody who's a charact it's it's storytelling, too. Like you're seeing the metaphor in it. You are a storyteller and you're also a baker and a pie baker and now a pie expert and a documentary director, producer, the whole nine yards.

You create [laughter] a documentarian. I don't know. I just want the world to be a better place. I don't care what you call me. I'm just out there like trying to use my voice and my creativity and speak my truth and encourage people to be, you know, just to be more generous and think of others.

Don't be so selfish. Oh, sorry. Yep. You're totally fine. Like the Grammys, you know, they have to bleep.

You're going to [laughter] bleep me. But yeah, I don't know. It's just like really think of other people, not just yourself, you know? And pie symbolizes that just by its virtue of it's meant to be shared, right? I love that.

But I and I love that you've recognized the storytelling aspect of pie and like helped other people to be able to do that too. And that and like you're like everybody has a pie story. I mean it's it's kind of like any type of historical knowledge that we used to get was passed down and it's so often like passed down while you're talking, while you're doing something in the kitchen. And this is like it's the item itself, right? It's the pie.

It's the tangible thing you've made that but it's also the conversations that are happening over it around it. And so I just think it's a great storytelling metaphor like you said. So yeah, I never I never seem to get tired of it. You know, that's that's what's I have tried to get away from the subject a few times and I go, have you? Well, I'm like maybe I should try.

I'm a Gemini. I have to like, you know, [clears throat] try new things, challenge myself. I mean, so rather than find a new subject, I'm like, this subject is still so compelling. why not find a new medium for it? And that's why I switched from books to film because I'm like, I need a new challenge.

And, yeah. So, wait. And what was that like, by the way, to transition into that? And that's like another thing to talk about, too, because you're, you know, this foray into this. A lot of times I think people think, "Oh, I'd love to I'd love to do this, but I already have this career.

I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to make money doing it. " Oh, yeah. So, that's the over that's the overthinking stuff. I don't do that.

I don't do I don't overthink. That's I That's what stops everybody. They overthink it. They come up with all the reasons why, no, it's not going to work, you know? And I'm like, I don't know.

I'm just going to try and see how far I can go. And then I just kept going. And once I committed, I was like, I'm not going to give up on this. I'm going to finish it all the way to the end. And I had written books before, so I know how to do a longer term project.

But yeah, I had to learn everything, but that's kind of what I wanted. And also, just some backstory, I had been trying to sell a docu series about pie. Get out of here. since 2010. Okay, that's a long time ago.

And Hollywood just wants a baking competition. like another baking competition really or they want a celebrity host and I'm saying neither. And so then I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna make my own proof of concept and show you what I'm talking about because you can't seem to freaking understand that this is about everyday shining a light on everyday people telling other people's stories. " And I said, "If you want to know about my story, you can go read my books.

I've had lots of press. So you don't I've done a TEDX talk. I don't need to tell my story. This is other people's stories and there's so many great stories out there as you saw in the film and that's only a fraction of them. So, so I just called up a whole bunch of filmmakers that I knew and, asked for advice and then I started shooting some things on my iPhone and then I hired some camera people and then next thing you know, it was like a full, you know, both feet in going around the state of Iowa to the bike ride across Iowa.

It's this annual bike ride, 500 mile bike ride across the state every year where people come and they have team names, you know, like team pie hunter and team noi refused. [laughter] They're just riding their bikes so that they can eat pie all along the route because these church ladies come out or you know these organizations, the Amish, you know, all these people have these pie stands along the route. So, it's a big pie event and then the Iowa State Fair with the pie competition and pie on a stick which is really funny and pie. It's crazy. And I have to say like I didn't know any of this history about pie.

I first of all I had no idea. so for anybody listening, we were Beth and I were introduced through another a friend of Beth's and who told me about this and one of the things she said is that you had gotten that first job in Malibu at the bakery basically because you said you lived in Iowa [laughter] and so they associated that so strongly with pie. I had no idea that it was like Iowa and pie go together like peanut butter and jelly. I don't know. Like I mean look at my like a lot of this stuff that's happened is just because I blurt it out you know without thinking like oh I think I'll I quit my com job.

I think I'll just go make pie and then you know I go to the pie thing to get a piece. Well I'll make it for you and then I'm from Iowa. I don't know. I just No, but a little bit crazy that way. I think it's really whatever it's great but it is also like more astute I think than you even realize.

It's like I think you're on to something but it's happening at some like deep level where you're like ah it's just me but no really you're on to like I know I don't know some sometimes like I feel like though with making this film because it was hard way harder than writing a book really way harder and I had to learn how to edit like Adobe Premiere Pro software that made me cry many times and swear a lot and my partner would hear he'd come home for lunch and he'd hear me up in my office you know he knew like stay away. [laughter] so you did all the editing. I didn't do all the editing. I did a lot of the editing and I ended up doing a lot of the shooting because some of the camera people I hired did a very poor job and I was like, I'm not going to pay money for this. When also in Iowa, those old ladies, they don't like a big camera crew, you know?

They just they just freeze. They like they just completely wouldn't talk. They wouldn't smile. They wouldn't tell me anything. " But if you use the phone, it's amazing that they, you know, they're used to it being having a phone around.

It's small. It's not like in their face. And their grandchildren probably had them, you know. Then I could just run around with my phone and I got really good footage that way. So I was like, okay.

but then the editing was definitely the hard part because what do you do with all these stories? How do you put them together? And everyone was like, oh, what's your three-act structure? And I'm like, I don't have a three-act structure. And it took months to figure out what, you know, and it's I it doesn't have to be a three-act structure, by the way.

It's a theme-based movie. But there but a three-act structure did sort of organically show itself by like, oh, past, present, future, right? Here's the nostalgia aspect, the memories, and then there's the what's happening now with all the events, and then there's the future of pie making with all these young people baking. So, it kind of just showed itself. But with this project, never in my life have I ever felt like the universe has my back like this.

Like every time I needed something and I was against the wall, boom, it showed up. whatever I needed showed up every single time and it's still happening. It's crazy. Even Wait, tell me an example. " You know, and I mean, I was just getting down to zero in my production bank account.

So, yeah. Oh my gosh, that's down to the wire. And it just happened again. I, you know, then I needed somebody to do my what they call color correction, which was not a fun process. And by the way, the color, you pay thousands of dollars to have all the color like evened out in your film.

And then it looks different on every single [clears throat] screen everywhere. It's crazy. Like it there's I'm still like I'm still having stress about certain things about the film. But Oh, I'm sure. any editing experience that I've had even from doing a podcast has been like so painful and so terrible and I'm like this is why like they say that the average podcast only lasts seven episodes I'm like that's why because but once I got into it I loved it that was actually one of my favorite things looking back it's like a jigsaw puzzle and oh maybe if I put this here or this song here or you know the transition with this and I it was that's the super creative part I think editors are very underrated for what they can do.

Yeah. Do you think you'd ever do it again? Oh, yeah. So, if you would have asked me that when this came out in June, I would have said, "No way. " Next thing you know, I'm like, "Wait a minute.

" you know, so like without even trying, you know, just the subconscious or whatever woowoo stuff happens, it's like, okay, we're ready to do the next one. And you know, because I had made this as a proof of concept for a TV series, like a docu series. Yeah. Or streaming, whatever. I don't feel like I want to do that anymore.

I don't want that I almost want to use the word constraint. like I don't want the constraint of having to answer to like a studio or another production company or a stream, you know, like no, this I love the autonomy of doing a documentary, working independently. I call all the shots. It's all on me. I I like that and I can handle that.

I've proven that. And I don't need anybody's permission. So, I'm thinking like my next one would be like PIA, but it would cover the whole United States like as a just, you know, show the geographical range and definitely more stories, you know, from other parts of the country. And I'm not saying I'd go to every single state and you know, but maybe every year, every year, [laughter] I didn't say that. Every year I could do a different one.

No, don't. I didn't say that. It's not a series. It's just maybe I could do one more and, you know, see where that leads. I don't know.

But there's definitely, no pun intended, but there definitely seems to be a hunger for this. And I always think of this there's these films, the Warren Miller ski films. They've been around for decades. And I used to be a big skier. So, and I lived in California and I'd go to the Warren Miller film and it's like it's an in-person thing where everyone comes once it's not online, it's in person.

So, you go to the theater and all the skiers, they have this love of skiing in common. They come and watch the ski film and they have a new one every year and I mean I'm sure they've got lots of people working on this so I'm just I'm just by myself but for now. Yeah. But I know I do need to hire people. but I don't know like I sort of see the pie film like that kind of a phenomenon where everybody who loves pie they would love to get together every year and see the annual pie film, right?

Wouldn't that be fun? And I've also been reading articles about there's a in fact Pam Redmond sent me an article about there's a trend if you will to go back into the theater you know to in-person events that have some kind of a common theme or you know a unifying thread something and I'm like I'm doing that you know I'm I'm I'm ahead of the trend so or I'm right on yes you've been ahead of the trend you know in the very beginning when we started talking you said about working in San Francisco with web stuff and how you wanted something tactile and I literally also worked in San Francisco and was doing working at a publishing company which isn't but it was during the dotcom era so I think everybody was trying to like lean towards that the early 2000s not the do the beginning the boom of the beginning but it just reminded me recently you know I live in New Jersey so it gets really gray and I'm as I get older I notice like I'm the darkness starts to affect me more and I don't I'm like I need a like a dose of sunshine. And so a couple years ago I bought myself one of those little lamps that you're supposed to put yourself in front of and I really did never do it because like I don't sit still long enough to have myself in front of the lamp. So I almost the other day invested in these glasses that were several hundred and you [snorts] put them on for like the first half hour of your day and they're like light. It's like a light to kind of open your eyes and it emulates sunshine.

" [laughter] Like [snorts] just I feel like we're just starting to have that yearning to return to real life. [laughter] Like not that any of these things aren't real. I mean, I couldn't have a job of any sort if there were no internet. Like, I'm very grateful for the luxuries that technology has brought me, and I'm grateful that I can access the things I can access. But I feel like we've stepped away so much from, you know, the actual grass, like the actual like I was like, I'm about to buy a device that emulates the very thing.

All I have to do is put on a coat to go feel on my face. and I feel like that's a lot also of what PIA does and to do those in person like you know you're talking about the events or even rolling it out as a continued thing. I think people miss community and people are lonely like you said and it's we've also forgotten how to get along a lot with people who are different than us because we don't ever really have to see them. You know what I mean? like Mhm.

you don't have to there are a lot of ways to not leave your house, right? So, yeah, I definitely see that's been [snorts] one of the huge draws of this film and then the word of mouth because people feel good when they come and see it. Then they want their friends to have that same experience and it is really fun when there's pie served afterward. Oh, come on. Exactly.

" It's like I could barely get through the Q&A because I'm like I know you guys know there's pie out there and waiting for you in the lobby. So we all try to keep it short. What's that? And all different kinds like Well, and one more thing I wanted to ask you. Well, a few more things, but before I get to the actual pie because I feel like I feel like I'm going to have to hang up with you and go to the grocery store [laughter] and get some butter.

I should have had some here. But you know talking about you transitioning into this new skill set and learning this new thing. A lot of not a lot but there's a section of your film where you speak to some younger women who are leaving corporate careers to open up their own pie shops and it's that it seems to be that also that autonomy. What are how do you think about that shift? Is it are they stepping away from ambition?

You know, there's a lot of talk about the ambition gap. Or are they redefining ambition? I think it's a number of things. I think part of it is they want to do something real. com.

they want the autonomy definitely. And as far as ambition, no, it's really hard work to run a pie shop. It's really hard work. So you have to be ambitious. [laughter] You have to still be ambitious if you want to do a pie shop.

There is a lot to it, you know. It's not just, oh, I want to make some pies and people will come. It's like you have to do the marketing. You have to do the, you know, the ordering, the it's it's a lot. I had a little pie stand for four years and it was, oh, people would say, oh, it must be fun to have just a little weekend business.

And I would just like, you know, steam would come out in my head. I'm like, you have no idea. I work seven days a week to do this little weekend business, you know. So, yeah. So, no, it's a it's a noble thing that these people are doing that they're opening a pie shop.

But, I mean, I still I still see storefronts. " And I still have my fantasies, you know, like, "Oh, I could, you know, I'm like, don't even think about that. You're not it's not going to happen. I'm so bad at bookkeeping. " But is that like that element like you said like the that well you didn't say the words risk-taking element but you did say like don't even you know pay attention to those questions cuz the self-doubt will kind of kill you.

Yeah. No, don't overthink it. And my other my other big saying is ignore the naysayers. That's my big motto. It just people are going to try to talk even if you don't talk yourself out of it, other people will try to talk you out of it.

And I say -. You have to want to do it bad enough. anything in life. You have to want to make a film bad enough to see it all the way through. If you want to write a book, you have to want it bad enough to make it a priority.

You want to open a pie shop, you know, and that's a, you know, business thing. And but yeah, I think it's I think change is good. I like it when people just go, I'm going to do something different, you know, and I'm going to try something new and something that maybe is more fulfilling than my corporate job. Yeah, I love that. And but by doing it yourself and shining a spotlight on other people, I think it gives women the permission to say, "Hey, this is, you know, it's not because there's always going to be naysayers.

" Like, why would you leave that dot job? It's practical. Look at the money you're making. You can count on it. It's depend.

I'll never make that much money again, but I don't care. It's fine. It wasn't about that money. Was it wasn't making me happy. is making me fat sitting at that desk all the time and I you know it's outdoor adventure website and I'm like super athletic and then I'm like working so hard that I was like this is all backwards.

So yeah. Well, I feel like you in what you're doing is kind of giving other women permission to step into something new whether I do want to add I started this film at 61 years old. Okay. So I am not a spring chicken. I have, you know, I'm some I'm not retiring anytime soon.

I never retirement's never been a word in my vocabulary. I My mom's 89. She's still working. She's in Atlanta on a business trip right now. You know, she's adorable.

So, and I mean, I'm sure that job is what's keeping her so sharp and alive. And I'm a Yeah, I'm not too old to make another film after this one. But, you know, so I'm 63 now. And it's like, yeah, I'm not too old. and to learn something new for one thing to try something completely different and then hello surprise actually have success at it you know like wow why didn't I why didn't I make a documentary when I was 40 instead of 60s it you know but here we are so but you gave so many people you are giving so many people permission to kind of think about it for their own lives who gave you yours well I think I've always been that way I went to a college that was like a very hands-on, the Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington.

And you can sort of design your own curriculum there. So, if I had an idea of something I wanted to do, I could create my own, you know, I would propose that I would read these books, I would make write these reports, this is what I would like almost like a thesis but undergrad, you know. So, that was a really great school for me because I am a self-starter that way. And also, I don't like it when people, if I have an idea and I want to do something, I don't like it when people get in my way. So, I'm like, I'll find a way around, you know, and that's it.

Like, Hollywood didn't want my pie docu series. Fine, I'll go make my own. And now, haha, you know, like, I mean, I don't mean it spiteful like that. I just like, look, you guys, I was trying to tell you, and now look, it is like taking off. So, I'm waiting for them to call me back and go, oh, sorry.

Well, yeah, we'll take it now. But I don't I'm like I don't know that I want that. I don't want to have to answer to anybody. So, yeah. I don't know.

That's just But that's maybe just that's I've always had a really good support system. My parents always encouraged us to follow our bliss and all that. So, you know. Well, it sounds like your mom is pretty Yeah. like much a trailblazer, too.

Do you mind if I ask what she does at 89? So she works for an organization that it's basically they teach meditation but it's called centering prayer and it's through the Catholic church sort of sort of this doesn't have to be Catholic but it's like started by a monk you know so yeah so she goes around and she's the co volunteer coordinator now she used to plan their whole national conference and she's she's worked with them for so many years she's kind of like the wise elder there know and she's on Zoom calls with people from all over the world every day. [laughter and clears throat] It's like [gasps] who would have guessed, you know? So, yeah. I have Well, I feel like having a mom like that would make it so there's not like you weren't questioning or were you during making pa were you ever like it's too late like you just said I should have done it when I was 40.

Did you ever No, no, no. I never felt it was too late. I was like I'm going to fit. It's actually my little thing that I do now and it's kind of sounds morbid but I'm like if I'm working on a project and I feel like you know so many people are getting cancer and dying and I was like if I had six months left to live if I got if I got a diagnosis right now and someone said I had six months left to live I would finish this film you know like that's [laughter] and I mean I said that when I was writing my last book if I do nothing else before I die I have to finish this book you know so oh my gosh We I am like this too. And I know you know what I say I am like a Jack Russell terrier and you've got a terrier so you can relate, right?

I am like I have like a terrier personality. Willful and I won't give up. I just won't give it up. So yeah. But I love how you like frame it too against like what you've got left like in terms of what I actually just was well a sense of urgency, right?

A sense of urgency because a lot of people will put it off. " Like, what are you waiting for? I I definitely am like a do it now person. And I don't even have a bucket list because I've always done everything. I like if I want to do it, I go do it.

I just like I don't put it off because I don't know my you know, I my I was married and my husband died suddenly and unexpectedly at the age of 43. So, I think that's left a permanent mark on my psyche of You don't you cannot take it for granted. So, what are you going to do with this one precious life, right? Okay, real quick. If you're listening and thinking more women should be hearing conversations like this, the best way to support the show is just to follow or subscribe wherever you are.

It really does help it reach more people. Thanks so much. Okay, back to the show. I you know and when you say it's morbid and I understand because it sounds to other people when you're like well I might have I mean I've actually done it even with books like I love to read and many years ago I read something that was saying you know if you do the math like how many books you have left and that's when I used to never not finish a book but then when I read that I did the math and I was like okay I really if I if I go the longest that I think I'm going to go. I only have if I read this many books a year.

This is how many books I have. I'm only reading books that have really good reviews and I have to if I like I get past a certain page, I let it go because I'm like life is short and I really love books and I'm not going to spend my time reading books I don't like. Like for obligated to finish it. Yeah. No.

And I know that's such a simple example, but in everything, even just going away to New York, I was just going and it was supposed to be below zero. When I went and I talked to my son and I, you know, I'm profoundly lazy. I would prefer to stay in my house. I like to be comfortable. And it was going to be so cold.

I knew I was going to have to wear two pair of pants, two shirt, like everything was going to be doubled boots, many socks. " He goes, "What do you have 40 years left? " And I was like, you're right. You're absolutely right. Thank you for the perspective.

Like I appreciate that because I feel like I see it, too. And I Everybody acknowledges that, I guess, on some level, but I think some people are way better at being like, I have plenty of time. I have plenty of time. For me, I've always felt like a bit of a sense of urgency. And so, I appreciate that.

And I appreciate that you went and you did it. And it's awesome. So, thank you. you're welcome. Yeah.

[laughter] So, well, a pie was like just not just about pie, obviously, and you're not going to leave hungry. You're going to leave it feeling uplifted and hopeful. What do you most want people es women who have spent years feeding others to feel when they watch it? that they're appreciated, you know, that what they're doing is giving love and the world needs more of that and that's the best thing you could possibly do with your life, you know, so that they would be appreciated for making that pie, making, you know, making memories with their families or their friends and making the world a better place by just baking a pie. Yeah, that's you absolutely because it's funny you're saying it.

I'm literally like to be appreciated because that's what you get when you watch it. You do you actually as just a mom I felt appreciated as a mom who's literally made two pies ever and also the cheater crust and [laughter] and I did make it. Don't judge me. Thank you. I made a pie for Thanksgiving this year that I previously made.

That was my other pie. That one was successful. I don't know what I was thinking, but I didn't put anything on the bottom of the pan of the cheater crust, and it was so I mean, we were like chiseling it out, but it was delicious, but it was like a a fail. As a mom who's not a pie baker, I also felt appreciated. Just the idea of feeding and nurturing as love.

Okay. It's never a fail. It's never a fail. Even if the crust is a little hard, just people can eat around it. If you didn't put enough sugar in it, just put some ice cream on it.

It's never a fail. The fact that you did it is nobody really cares. You'd be surprised because there's all these perfectionists out there that, you know, make it intimidating for people to want to make a pie because, well, it doesn't look perfect. It's not supposed to. It's supposed to be imperfect.

It's homemade. You want it to have your signature on it. And every pie I make is different. I There's no guarantee it's going to turn out, but nobody cares. They're just glad you made a pie.

So, it's just like, you know, that's what that guy in the film says. The message is just keep baking. Keep baking. What? So, tell me, do you have a favorite pie story that's come out of Let's not say that the film specifically because I'm sure you keep getting asked, but like that's come out of the conversations you've had during the screenings.

Is there a favorite pie story? And also, what's your favorite pie? Dad's was banana cream. I would go back to that screening. Well, okay, I do have I have two stories.

First of all, that screening in Newport Beach totally blew my mind that all these people showed 250 people showed up, you know, many of them bringing pies and staying and I was like, I didn't expect that in that environment. So, that was a big thing for me. Absolutely. My very first screening was in a town of 200 and it was actually in Minnesota, not Iowa, but because a friend of mine lives up there and runs an art center and he invited me up and there were only 22 people at the screening. It was a very cold not cold.

What am I saying? It wasn't a cold night, but it felt like a cold night. It was June. Well, it was June in northern Minnesota. Yeah, I guess cold.

It was actually it was cold come to think of it for summer. And so we I did the Q&A afterward and we didn't have plans to serve pie. I mean that was so early on in my venture and I think we talked about it but it didn't happen like I would have had to go up there a couple days early and organize a baking thing and I don't know. But so in the Q&A this lady says oh I have old lady like 90 I don't know she's in her 80s maybe. " She went home and got them and came back and served her pies to the audience and so we all got pie afterward and it was oh my gosh, that was one of the most amazing things.

And that's from the start, like the very, very first screening was like, "Oh my god, this woman went home and got her pies to share. They were still warm. " And my only regret is I had a tiny piece cuz, you know, I wanted like I should have had a bigger piece. [laughter] I just regret I want another piece of that pie. I'm still thinking about it.

but yeah, it was so sweet. " And that's the film, you know, that's that's the pie. That's what pie does. That's what these stories do. And like a lot of people say, "Oh, I want to do a pie giveaway like this eat free pie in the film.

How do I do that? Here, I put them in touch, you know. Oh, I like that program where they teach teen girls pie making skills and business skills and customer service skills, marketing skills, all that. and how you know it's a program can you know do you think that we could do that program in our area? So like there's been a lot of this kind of ripple effect with the film which is very exciting for me to see like very fulfilling to know that people are really taking something away from it and wanting to implement something similar in their own community.

It's it's such a film to have a conversation over pie about like it's I watched it by myself which and I thoroughly enjoyed it but I could see it being so meaningful to have these connections especially with different generations and you know and hearing the stories about even when it goes out of pie and you just like I said like my mom with these Italian cookies like you know it's the things that we pass on to each other and the things we get out of nurturing ing and I loved it. So, thank you. And last thing though, what is your favorite pie? H I have so many favorite pies, but I could say it's kind of seasonal depending, but Okay. Okay.

Well, in the summer, peach crumble is number one. Well, no, spring is strawberry rhubarb, then peach crumble, and then in the fall, I would say, well, I get cravings for pumpkin pie. I know it's really simple, but just that. And then an apple of course, but and then right now it's winter, so my partner's favorite pie is French silk pie, which is chocolate with a whipped cream on top, and it's amazing. And so yeah, that's next up on the favorite pie list, but I always say that apple is like if I had to choose one, it would be apple because that's the one I never get tired of.

Oh man, you're making me want pie. Yeah. No, it's it's a thing. I mean, I actually have apples here at home, so I have them out on the counter sitting in a pie dish ready to make an apple pie. So, you will just go make a pie right now possibly if you want.

It will be nothing. You're just going to make a pie. Yeah. For like for no reason. You mean like Yes.

Yes. It's just going to Oh, I have Well, I told my partner, I go, I really should share some of this with his sister-in-law. She's got her leg in a cast or a brace because she had broke her kneecap. And then I haven't seen my neighbor who lives a mile and a half down. I haven't seen her for a month.

" I don't know. Sometimes you just need pie. Sometimes it just feels good to make the pie and then you never know who might stop by and hey, we want a piece of pie, you know. So yeah, I don't know. It's always better to share it.

So I'm sure at least one or two of those pieces will make it out of the house to somebody else. That's awesome. That Thank you so much for being here. I'm going to make sure that in the show notes we have everything about where people can watch PA where it's screening, where they can learn more about more about you since PA isn't just your story and also get the cookbooks. Thank you.

No, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. It was fun talking to you. You too. A huge thanks to Beth Howard.

I especially love the way she talked about following something small and something creative and letting it become meaningful without forcing it to be what we think it's supposed to be. And next week, we're digging into a different kind of pressure, the expectations placed on parents and especially moms and how much of what we think we're supposed to do might not actually be serving us or our kids with Jessica Lahey. In the meantime, if this episode inspired you to follow your own passion or to bake or eat a pie, share it with a friend. That's how these conversations keep going. See you next week on Roar.