Why Women Are Conditioned to Be Likable, and What It Costs Them, with Sophie Jane Lee
Updated: 1 hour ago
What if the version of yourself you’ve been taught to be…isn’t actually you?
In this episode of Roar, Danielle Davies sits down with writer and speaker Sophie Jane Lee for a conversation about something many women experience, but don’t always have language for: Palatability.
The pressure to be
• likable
• agreeable
• easy to receive
And the subtle ways that pressure shapes how women speak, show up, and express themselves.
Danielle and Sophie explore what happens when we start to recognize that conditioning, and what it takes to move beyond it.
Together, they talk about
🔥 What it means to be “palatable”—and how early that starts
🎤 The difference between authenticity and adaptation
🧠 How women are conditioned to soften their voice
🌿 The emotional and professional cost of being agreeable
💥 Why being liked can come at the expense of being heard
📣 The process of unlearning internalized expectations
👑 What it looks like to take up space more fully
⚡ Reclaiming your voice without apology
Sophie’s perspective gives language to something many women have felt, but haven’t fully named. And once you see it, it’s hard to unsee.
🔑 Key Takeaways
Palatability is learned, not innate.
Being likable and being heard are not the same.
Women are often rewarded for softness over clarity.
Unlearning conditioning is an active process.
Your voice doesn’t need to be softened to be valid.
Listen to ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture & Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. New conversations every Tuesday.
Full Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically and lightly cleaned up. It may contain small errors.
Women's unpaid labor is a multi- trillion dollar industry. We literally our unpaid labor literally holds up the entire system. That's Sophie Jane Lee and this is Roar. Hi everybody, it's Danielle Davies, the host of Roar. I'm really excited today on Roar.
I'm joined by Sophie Jane Lee. She's a journalist, brand strategist, founder of Electric Peach, but most recently she's the author of the upcoming book Beyond Palatable, a manifesto for unapologetic women, which is obviously perfect for all of us. Sophie's work sits at the intersection of voice, visibility, and nervous system safety. She writes about the cost of shrinking ourselves to be accepted and what happens when women stop performing palatability and start telling the truth. Her book isn't just a self-help manual.
It's a manifesto, a challenge to the systems that teach women to dilute themselves and a toolkit for reclaiming authenticity in a world that profits from our silence. Today, we're going to be talking about self-expression, conditioning, leadership, and what it actually means to live unapologetically. Oh, I have an echo. Sophie, welcome to Roar. Thanks so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having me. That was really great introduction. " I think I should just do introductions cuz like I love it. I obviously want to talk about the book a lot because by the time this podcast come out comes out, it'll be available. And will it be available in the US?
Yes. So you can buy it on all major bookstores and you can at the moment you have to ship it over to the US, but you can do that easily. Okay. And so we're going to talk about that, but I want to just tell you at the outset that at some point I also want to talk about your mastermind and the self-expression sessions and be like, what are you doing across the pond and how do I get there? Yes.
Okay. Yes. Okay. We'll talk about that. Okay.
So, first of all, the book you're talking I love that you use the word palatable because it's just exactly right. " And you reassured me there is no too much. for kicking that to the curb. So, when we talk about the word palatable, what behaviors are we talking about? What does a good woman look like culturally?
It looks like apologizing for yourself and bringing, as you did, this incredible welcoming, beautiful energy and still feeling like, oh no, maybe I went too far. Presumably, because at some point somebody has said, Danielle, calm down. or maybe just tone it down a bit, whatever that might be, which is so common. I've worked with hundreds of women with that exact same experience and story. it can also look like being really quiet.
So you have something that you want to say but holding back and not wanting to say the thing that your idea for example not wanting to rock the boat. Saying yes when you mean no which we all have the experience of so many times. It can look like constant servitude and the idea that you need to be everything to everybody all the time. And usually when you get into your midlife, you realize how completely burnt out you are because you've been spinning 500 different plates and nobody's giving you any energy back again. It can look like pretending that you love the PTA.
I don't know if you have PTA in the US, but it's the parent teacher association. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's like it looks like saying yes that you'll do the talk at the PTA this evening when you actually really hate all of the moms there and you don't want to be spending your evening doing that. it's it's kind of this ingrained expectation that women have to perform in every element of our lives.
So, we're performing what it looks like to be the perfect wife or the perfect mother or the badass bo boss [ __ ] or the like whatever it might be and we just completely disconnect from the truth of who we actually are. I have a question. So, you know, I've I've been talking to some I am in midlife. So, I've been talking of course I do a lot of research about women in midlife because it benefits myself. but one of the things you know is obviously like stepping back from that and reclaiming that and you know hopefully raising the next generation which I think I am successfully doing.
I must say my daughter is does not you know she's like no no these are my boundaries and I absolutely will not do that and that's awesome for me. I'm unlearning that kind of behavior, right? " Because it turns out because I'm like I don't want to do any of those things, you know? So like is there do you advise women or even in your book are you like hey there are some things we have to do and what are they? " or you just say absolutely not.
Like I'm not doing it. Is there a point or do you just always say no? Cuz right now I'm like saying no to everything. And I think that's I'm here for that. That's great.
I think in reality though, it's really unrealistic and it's I talk in the book a lot about all of these trite slogans that we hear like if it's not a [ __ ] yes, it's a [ __ ] no. I'm guessing I can swear. Yeah. Yes. Absolutely.
Okay. I should have checked. And it's like if it's not a [ __ ] yes, it's a [ __ ] no. Like that. No, that's not like it's never going to be a [ __ ] yes for me to go and do my weekly shop.
Like it's it's not. But it has to happen. I hate I'm like when I go to the dentist I'm never like [ __ ] yes I'm going to the dentist I hate it but it's an obligation that Yes. Okay. Sorry.
Yeah. It's an obligation to yourself. And like in the same like my stepson my stepson's mom lives like a 1 and a half hour round trip with traffic. It's never going to be a [ __ ] yes for me to go and get him and take him back. But we do it because we it's the payoff for that.
So it might be you absolutely hate the PTA but you want to show up for your kid and you want to be a present mom [clears throat] and you want and you really want to be part of influencing the school system in whatever way. So then it's a spectrum of discernment of okay, so the experience right now is really not what I want, but the reason I'm doing it is good enough and big enough and bigger than me and my needs to do it to make it worth it. And I think that's kind of where really more than anything I want people to start to tune into the truth of themselves. If it's an absolute [ __ ] no, then I think we need to listen to that. If it's like a visceral and you'll know it because your body will respond.
You'll start to feel anxious. You'll start to like tense up. If you force yourself to do things when you feel like that, then that can be when you start to experience other challenges related to physical anxiety. But if it's just like a I really can't be bothered, but I'm doing it for a bigger reason, then it's the discernment piece of okay, well, is this really more about why I'm doing it and what I'm showing up for? And I think that's a really key part because while I really believe in us reclaiming our autonomy and our voice and our right to say no when we mean no, I also think that there can be this weird therapization of these are my boundaries and I'm protecting my peace that can actually cause harm to other people.
So there is again that discernment piece in each situation where you look at the nuance of the full picture and use that to make an informed autonomous decision. And that's a really important point, right? Because what we do usually is we just say yes on rote or we just go through the motions because we think that's what we have to do. And that's what I'm trying to encourage us to move away from. I love that.
But I and I especially love how you do say to use discernment because again like even personally or what I watch, you know, for my daughter who's 17, so obviously, you know, there's lots of feelings and emotions behind like what you will and will not do. it is interesting because I think that's the part that's missing from so much of the dialogue. " I'm like, "No, no, no. " Like, you got to find that middle ground that works for you. And I think like exposure to the fact that we can say no and that we have been conditioned in this way is great, but what you're saying is really hits the mark.
It's sustainable. Yeah. And it's not about blowing your whole life up because I actually think that what holds a lot of women back from doing this work is the fear that if they start unpicking and start examining what's going on that suddenly they're going to be met with the truth of this huge thing that's a huge thing to carry and then they're going to have to change their entire life which is unrealistic for a lot of people. terrifying for a lot of people. Actually, it's more about the incremental steps of becoming more aware of who you are and the needs that you have as you as a precious being and making choices for your own life based on your own needs rather than constantly abandoning yourself and prioritizing everybody else's needs instead.
Quick pause because if you're listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind of person I write for. I send out a Substack newsletter where I go a little deeper, more personal stories, behindthe-scenes thoughts, and honestly, some of the things we don't always say out loud here. com. I'd love to have you there. And now, back to your regularly scheduled podcast.
back to the systemic issue of palatability. Can you I mean I think I know the answer, but I'd love to hear your words describing it. Who benefits from this training of women's palatability? If we look at what the outcome of that is. So first of all, women's unpaid labor is a multi- trillion dollar industry.
We literally our unpaid labor literally holds up the entire system, not just in the UK, not just in the US. If you look at it as a global issue. So if we woke up and we were like, you know what, actually I'm not going to do all of this unpaid labor. Thank you. The world would literally stop operating because it relies on us to be in servitude.
That's number one. Number two, the industries that profit [snorts] directly profit from women's insecurities. We've got the beauty industry, the wellness industry, the fashion industry, the pharmaceutical industry actually because there's a huge market for selling drugs to women who are completely burnt out and completely overwhelmed to help them calm down like Valium as mother's little helper. the alcohol. I'm like just laughing internally because it's just it's like so when you say it and you say it so well, but when you put it all out, it's like so preposterous.
But keep going. Keep going. I mean, yes, because we're all just fed anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications because of course we're exhausted and of course we're just well autoimmune disorders which have been directly linked to repressed emotion are overwhelmingly impact women and burnout overwhelmingly impacts women. we have this mass exodus from the workplace which is being positioned as a ambition gap like it's just ridiculous. But then again to go back to the industries that profit from women we've sort of got the pharmaceutical industry we've got the fact that women account for by I think it's by 2030 they predict that women will account for 96% of household spending.
So women literally the system relies on us to operate as the commodity of it and also we're the ones that are buying it. So we are both the product and the buyer. And when you really start to understand that if we if you or I or any of us woke up tomorrow and we were like I don't need any of this stuff to be happy. I don't need this new beauty regime. I don't need to look like how I've been told I need to look.
None of that stuff. I actually just need connection and rest and community and nature. Like all of these things that are fundamental to human happiness. Our literal biological system has been set up for it. And then we just stopped buying into the system.
Literally physically like money buying into the system. Well, then the entire system would collapse which is the reason why there is a backlash every single time that there is any kind of female empowerment movement because they know that we there is multi- trillion dollar industries built on the back of women's insecurity and they have engineered it. So as soon as they start to see women being like actually I don't need this and actually whatever it might be there will always be a backlash to that and we see that all the time and it makes me kind of smile when I see the rise of misogyny in a really weird way because I think they must be terrified. If they're going so far down this weird misogynistic twisty route then they must be terrified. We must be gaining power because otherwise they wouldn't be bothering.
Do you feel like it's purposeful or like almost habitual on that end as well? Do you know what I mean? Like we're so ingrained that some Well, okay. So, yesterday I was in Manhattan and when we woke up in the morning, somebody turned a television on and there was this old movie and of course I get I'm like can't have something on in the background. I'm like that's it.
I'm It's like I'm in a trance. But it was called Adam's Rib and it's from 1949. It's with Katherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy and in it they're both lawyers. I mean this is 1949. It's almost a hundred years ago.
They're both lawyers and it's a husband versus a wife case. And she's representing a woman who shot her husband after he basically abused her. And it's sort of I mean it's sort of comedic the way they're playing it. I mean, it is 1939, but interestingly, it wasn't dated like the themes were all the same. And I'm like, so it almost seems like, you know, there's this movement for women and then misogyny shows its head and we're back down and then there's this movement.
I'm just wondering from what you've done and your research and talking to people, do you feel like it's purposeful or do you feel like it's partially the their own internal patterns? I think that it's a bit of both that originally it was certainly purposeful. There was the if you look at and in my book I do at the be the first part of my book is all looking at the history, the literature, the stories that have been created, the narratives woven throughout the last well I look at like right back at the beginning of where the patriarchy was supposedly created and what that means and why that is and how interwoven now patriarchy, capitalism and white supremacy are as a system of oppression And a lot of that comes from the stories that were told which on the one hand is that men were the ones that told the stories. So there was only really one narrative and whenever women were in part of that narrative they were being told through the lens of the ma the male lens anyway. But then equally there is evidence all the way back to the Greek times of women having no voice and how dangerous it was for a woman to have a voice.
e. our cycles, the cycles of nature, our ability to use nature for medicinal purposes. All of these things contributed to the witch trials. And over and over and over and over again over thousands of years, women have been shown not even condition. It's evidence.
This is what happens if a woman is seen. This is what happens if a woman is heard. It is unsafe. We have that programming within our biology. And within the narratives that we continue to be fed and in the last 100 years, things have actually changed at an alarming rate in so many ways in a way that's never ever happened before.
And we're kind of on this like jolty roller coaster. Like it's it's been less than 50 years since women were allowed to have a mortgage on their own. Not sorry, not even a Yeah, a mortgage. So 50 years since women and not that much longer than that since they were allowed to have a bank account. Of course, then we've got the vote in the world today.
There's still a lot of countries where none of those things are available to women where women are still killed for being seen and having a voice. And so I do think that some of it is conditioning and that women ourselves are also responsible for it because I know actually honestly as many if not more misogynistic women than I do misogynistic men. So we can talk about that if you want. Yes, that was nice feelings about that. and I think that the systems of patriarchal oppression impact men as much, just in different ways, as they impact women.
because they're so outdated. We're looking at 12,000 years. It's we live in a very weird time where roles are really distorted and nobody really knows what they're supposed to be doing and it causes confusion and anger and we're not always very good at having good communication through that. So, we blame each other. But equally, I do 100% believe that the people who are in power know exactly what they're doing.
And I absolutely believe that they are purposefully creating polarization and civil unrest to distract from the real problem which is completely insane capitalism and the oppressive systems that are actually impacting like 99% of us and the 1% who are benefiting from that. Oh, you know, it is really too bad that you're ever going to have to hang up because I could have you on the phone all day. All day. All day. I have I have so much to say, but I'm I'm going to try to not I want to go back to the one thing you said that it's also women who are, you know, I look at it as you're holding down other women, right?
I mean, there are women who are part of this patriarchy who are the ones shushing you. And in fact, most of the shushing that's been done in my life has been from other women. because we are, like you said, it's it's almost like a fear thing. So, you can't have one of you, you know, speaking out. We have to kind of stay together and sh like be quiet.
Can you talk about this and like the idea also of almost [snorts] self-abandonment so that there's belonging? Yeah, I think we have been conditioned to believe that fitting in equals belonging. Fitting in does not equal belonging. I'm sure we've all had those experiences where we're technically part of the tribe, but we feel so lonely and so disconnected and so fractured within ourselves. Self abandon, fitting in, trying to fit in will only ever lead to self-abandonment.
But we have many of us have been taught especially by if we have boomer parents who have grown up in a really weird time because they're they've they've been brought up by parents who were either in the war or whose parents were probably their whose parents were in the first world war and that's like insanely different time to what we have today. And they were the first ones as women that were taught that they could have it all and that they could have a career and that they could go out while at the same time having these really traditional roles and expectations drilled into them by their parents. It's like this cognitive dissonance of how you're supposed to be as a woman. So our generation have been taught on the one hand you've got to be acceptable and you've got to be palatable but then at the other time you also have to be exceptional and you have to be achiever and you have to be an achiever and you can't just be a stay-at-home mother because that's a waste of a life and all of these things and that is a that is a complete like these two things can't exist together. You cannot be acceptable and exceptional.
The two things cancel one another out because acceptable is towing the line, doing what everybody else does, doing what people expect of you. Exceptional by its very nature is being one of a kind, shining. So like, of course, we're in this confused like, what the hell? And I think women, because we've been conditioned to believe we have to fix everything and have all of the answers and have it all put together, that cognitive dissonance creates a real fracture within us that we don't know how to communicate effectively. And so then it plays out as you've broken the social contract.
you behaving in that way is unacceptable to the social contract and therefore holding a mirror up against me and what I'm supposed to be doing and so I'm going to judge you for it and project all of my fears and insecurities onto you and make you pull you down a peg or two in response to that. Oh god, I cannot wait to get your book. I can't wait. when you another thing you talk about too is that it this isn't just this isn't just happening it's happening internally in our body. So it's not just like a mindset habit like I will do these things.
It's it's a physical you're you're feeling you're not just thinking yourself small. Your body has learned to kind of cower. Your body has learned to do these things. What does shrinking actually feel like in the body? And why was it important to you?
I know there's like sematic practices in your work. Why was that important to you? How did you even kind of conceptualize this? Sorry, that's like three questions at the same time. Okay.
Well, they all link together. So, like the experience of shrinking actually is so much more physical than it is psychological. Like of course we might experience it as loneliness or fear or sadness or whatever kind of emotion comes up, but physically it feels like having someone putting weight again on your chest. Like the feeling of being trapped and like your whole body is kind of clenching so tightly. And we might say that's anxiety.
And women are so prone to anxiety, but actually this is your body like feeling constantly under threat because we're social creatures. We are conditioned biologically conditioned to not be kicked out of the tribe. We it's dangerous for our safety to be kicked out of the tribe. So when we have that feeling of being ostracized or what have you or the fear of that it occurs to us as a as a physical threat. but then the other thing that I find really interesting is where we have our response to that.
So fight flight freeze and then there's the f response which people refer to as people pleasing which is also now demonized. I'm recovering people pleaser and is really interesting again because there's an expectation of you to sacrifice yourself for everyone else. But if you're a people pleaser, that's a really bad thing. And people pleasing is just your body's response to disregulated nervous system. And so we are taught from a really young age the way to keep the peace is just to do what other everyone asks us to do.
The way to make sure that you're safe is just to say yes when you really mean no. And all of those things are people pleasing. And you can't just think your way out of that because it's been ingrained into you since you're so young. It's a safety mechanism. It's literally what your body has understood to stay alive.
It doesn't know the difference between dying, potentially dying, and having someone be annoyed with you. It registers them as the same thing. So, you're having this constant state of like and it feels so overwhelming because your body's reading it like an actual physical threat. And I wish people understood that more because it's become so thrown around now and demonized. And it's so unfair because we live in a society that conditions us into it to just expect that you're going to be able to think your way out of it.
Like if that worked, my god. Like how amazing would it be if we could just all think our way out of neurosis. Like you can't think your way out of a neurosis. No, you can't despite many years of trying. It's interesting too because I feel like you know even sometimes some of one of the things that I keep reading about different just it just keeps coming up is not necessarily because I'm I'm of course everything you're saying I'm relating to like people that I know or this or that and I'm and making everything personal but my sister has always been like I'm guilty of being such a people pleaser and she is I'm more guilty of and guilty see look at us on it I am more someone who is negotiating the peace of the people at the table and like conversations, but how you find yourself in these roles and you're just locked in.
And that's still that's still a foreign response because you're trying to manage the emotional state of the people around you. Like it comes from the same thing. It's just a different manifestation of that thing. and you asked me why sematic. So, I spent an awful long time after many, many, many, many years of self abuse and addiction, doing every kind of therapy you could possibly imagine.
And I found that talk therapy did not work for me at all because it just retraumatized. I couldn't think my way out of my crazy. It's like your way out of it, right? Like I just it like all I started to intellectualize my crazy. I had like the language to excuse myself from my crazy but I couldn't shift it because it was rooted in my body.
So when I discovered sematics which is all about connecting to the body understanding how the nervous system works understanding how to regulate yourself and also knowing that whatever you're experiencing is a really normal reaction because when we psychoanalyze ourselves we make ourselves wrong. We're like, I shouldn't be a people pleaser. I should try harder. I Or even like things like I'm working hard and not working so hard. Yeah.
Like the shoulds. The shoulds. Like I should I should It's like such an obligation. It makes you just start off at a negative. Yeah.
And when we realize that actually we live in a completely batshit crazy world that is not designed for the way that our systems, our physical systems and our social systems were supposed to operate. We are in every single way operating against what our biology is supposed to be operating. Of course we feel like this. Of course we're behaving like this. And you start to give yourself some more grace.
And then those intrusive thoughts which I had real challenges with can start to get quieter because it's not oh it's no longer me that's default like a defunct. I'm not defunct. I'm not broken. The system is defunct and broken though. How do I navigate that with as much care and as much grace for myself and others as possible?
The first thing to do is to regulate my nervous system because nobody can function properly when they're in that heightened disregulated state because you're just cortisol. You're just living on cortisol all the time. And it not only is it terrible for your health, but it's terrible for your happiness, for your inter relational dynamics, your ability to focus, all of these things. So when I realized that and I did my own process with that, I then trained as a sematics coach so that I could bring that into my work cuz I work a lot with women who want to use their voice and become more visible. And I realized again the idea of like just get visible is rubbish because if you haven't got a nerv a regulated nervous system then you will find a way to sabotage yourself or someone will come and say something horrible because people do and it will throw you off and you'll go back into hiding again.
And actually that regulated state is so essential for being able to be sustainably visible and well resourced at the same time. I love your process of this and I love how you came to it when you know based on your own experience and obviously becoming less palatable although I find you to be quite palatable to me. Yes. Like did becoming more visible cost you anything personally or surprise you in ways you didn't expect? It cost me quite a lot of friendships.
over the last couple of years, particularly last year, I had quite a few of who I considered to be really close friends break up with me in very dramatic, very upsetting ways. And my first thought when multiple things happen and I'm the common denominator is to think, well, I must be the problem because I'm the one that's there for all of these different things. And I think probably it's true actually that I was the I was that common denominator. And really it was because in the past I used to I used to have a bit of a savior complex. And so my friendships were built around me being like I can save you.
I can be there for you. And the more that I grew into who I am, the less I felt the need to do that. And I was like it's not my place to fix you. it's not my place to run in and save you when stuff happens for you. And I think that created a real tension in those relationships that relied on that dynamic from me.
And they then mistook [clears throat] my new boundaries for suddenly thinking I was better than them more or something like that. They created a whole story around that. And that was really painful. But I also expected it because when you start to change and you start to grow into yourself, the people who were you were people pleasing to please are no longer pleased and then they start then they start projecting all of their own [ __ ] that they're not dealing with themselves back on to you. So it does happen though.
I mean like this thing that we fear you know being left by a friend or a spouse or a child or your neighbor it does happen like being yourself can be scary right there are people who will what why is it still worth it well first of all I would say that honestly it's not that it can happen it's that it will happen you will find that when you're especially if you've been pretending really a lot and you're allowing yourself to shed these layers and suddenly you're being your true self will feel really confronting to the people who are used to you being a different way. That's normal. There is a whole chapter in my book called Navigating Other People, which is because this is like this is this is definitely going to happen. And a lot of people who I work with hold themselves back because they don't want to have to deal with other people no longer liking them or judging them or whatever it might be. And I find that really sad because the number one regret of the dying is living life to somebody else's expectations.
So at the end of it all when you strip it all back and nothing else matters, the number one thing that people regret is that they didn't live their own lives. And nothing. Nothing. No Sandra from down the road talking about you behind your back. No your mom being put off that you're no longer doing all the things that you were doing that she was relying on.
Like no thing, no other person is worth you getting to the end of your life and looking back with that level of regret. You're so good. Okay. For Thank you. Thank you.
And I and I couldn't agree with you more, but I do think like there is and I guess women can expect, you know, or anybody who's shedding something that's not authentic or speaking up for the first time and they've maybe not done it before or they've they've seemed to go along to get along and finally it's too much. And I think that's happening a lot by the way right now politically. I mean it's been happening but it's like really really happening right now in the US. And if anybody still likes us outside the US, there's a lot of great things about the US. The people's have some issues.
Yeah. So it's like but and so there's so much infighting too because so many people for so long, you know, I mean the two rules you grew up with if you have boomer parents are you don't talk about politics and you don't talk about religion. Those are the two things. And it's and you're not allowed to talk about money either. But that might be a British thing actually.
I think Americans love talking about money. We talk about money a little bit more, but maybe we just don't even talk about how we don't talk about money. Yeah. No, there is a lot of talk about money and how much we have or don't or don't sadly. But now like you know it's gotten to the point and so many people from what I would like to say my side of the of the aisle or my side of the world view are saying you know you must talk about politics because everything is political.
So there's really no way to separate this there. Every single thing from where the meat is placed at the grocery store to where you get your coffee. Everything's food related for me right now. But it's all political. So, of course, you're talking about it, but so there are so many people who for the longest time have not said a word.
" And it's so it can it doesn't can be. You're right. It is going to happen even if it's super small and it's going to hurt. Like that's the other part. It is going to hurt.
Like it is going to hurt. Yeah. But you can come through on the other end. Yeah. What I'm And that's taking away.
Yeah. And that's why having tools and the book is really a workbook, every chapter has exercises that build on one another so that when we get to the part where So, but the first chapter is going to make you so angry and wake you up so much to how insane the whole situation is. and hopefully give you empathy for your own ways that you have abandoned yourself and also others because again we talked about internalized misogyny in women. That's also conditioning. It's not to say women are bad and even those who've done some nasty thing.
I've been one of those nasty people who've tried to pull other people down because of my insecurities. I think we've all been there at some point. You start to have more grace with yourself and more compassion. by the time it gets to the part of now actually taking some action and like really releasing your true self, you're more resourced to do that. And I think that resourcing yourself and again going back to the nervous system, regulating that, being prepared for the fact that somebody might not like it, but that doesn't mean that's your problem.
And it doesn't even mean that they don't like you. Even in the moment that it might feel like they don't like you because they're having a real extreme reaction to something, it always says much more about them than it does about you. And when you start to understand that I'm not responsible for other people's emotions and reactions, but I am responsible for how I choose to move through the world. And especially in the context of things like religion, like again, would you rather just be silent and watch all of the horrors that are happening in the world and not be somebody who uses their one precious life for that just because you're worried that Uncle Fred will think that you've become too political and it's not it's not acceptable behavior? or would you rather learn how to galvanize and rally and use your voice and use your beliefs for good?
Like that's that's a that's a big thing in the work that I do is how do we use our voices as a chorus to come together to make a difference because we really need to now that the world needs women particularly to wake up stop behaving batshit crazy and voting for people who are like actual f*cking sex offenders and like sorry I shouldn't have got laughing because it's so absurd. I actually just asked someone yesterday. " Because what do they have? There's no need for it anymore. Everything is the onion.
I know. And again, I think it's really important with politics because it can s there's [clears throat] so much nuance there. Like it's like this right and wrong, good and bad in the general public is to me not very helpful because again it's infighting when nobody nobody that you come to in the street is the problem. The problem is the people who are causing all of this issues and they are manipulating people and some people can see that and some people cannot see that but that is what's happening and I really believe that the only way that we can actually solve this is to stop blaming one another and start coming together to even in our differences even in our I don't actually agree with what you believe about this but I can see the humanity in you. Let's come together.
Let's share our stories and create a new world that's actually going to work for everybody because let's be honest, this isn't working for anybody. Well, and I think apart from the 1%, right? Exactly. They're they're doing just fine. They don't need your book, but everybody else does because and you know, even to have that conversation to say we're I didn't just raise my flag and say now I believe this so you're wrong.
It's not it's now what do you do with that? and say like how can you come together and how can you communicate? And I think you really do have to have these resources that you're providing to kind of do that to be introspective enough to be able to be yourself. You know what I mean? To have those because those are really vulnerable conversations.
And a lot of people, you know, it they're good at the fight like you know it's almost like a little performative like I'm here now. I'm I can speak up and it's the fight, but there's the next step. It's not supposed to just you have to get there. And I think that's something that I mean, from the sounds of it, that's what Beyond Palatable will help people do in the future. So, good timing.
Yeah, I hope so. I mean, it definitely will help you to come home to yourself and to navigate tricky dynamics better, to find your own truth as well. Because imagine if you've spent so long pretending that you're fine about something that actually deep down is really, really not fine for you. How lonely you would feel in those situations. And like yes, you might have to lose a few people along the way, but then you what more can you what more can you gain?
Who could you meet if you're being true to yourself? If you're shining your light fully, other people can find you. And that can bring a whole another opportunity in your life. And I will always have an undercurrent motivation because I believe so strongly that there is no problem that can't be resolved through effective communication that we should be using our voices and I will should on this. I do believe we should be using our voices because we have got the freedom and privilege as women in the west today and a lot of women in the world do not.
I think we absolutely should be using our voices for justice [snorts] and equality. And I do not think it's controversial to say that you stand for justice and equality. And it's become an insane world that we live in that is seen as some kind of political controversial thing to say. And I do believe that we have a responsibility to do that and that's one part of it. But you also have a responsibility to yourself to be true to yourself.
then you can live in a joyful and aligned way. And it doesn't mean you have to blow up your marriage. It just means taking the steps to find alignment in a way that's true to you. Absolutely. I'm I'm really excited about this.
But you're you're bringing me back to the very first thing that I said, which are what are some of the other ways that people can work with you? And wait, hold on. I have it written down, so I'm going to look. the self-expression sessions and the mastermind. Can we I know you've got to go soon, but can you touch base on what each of those are and how people can access you?
Sure. So, the self-expression sessions are live events that I run throughout the UK. We just had one in Bristol and they were created from the belief that everything is more joyful when we're true to ourselves and also that business sucks. sometimes because there's so much [ __ ] I'm really I'm really sick of this whole 10x your income, six figure boss [ __ ] culture that I see and that I really think it damages people so much because we believe we need to look and be a certain way to be successful. And I'm living proof that is not true.
So, I see it as kind of like [snorts] like a variety show of weird and wonderful creative ways to connect with yourself. And it depends on the city that the city kind of influences how I choose to shape the event, but we always have lots of audience participation and creativity. Always have some level of poetry in there. usually some singing and talks around [snorts] from people who have spent a long time believing that they were a weirdo and that they could never make anything of their lives to actually the most shining beacons of amazing fabulousness that you've ever met and how they did it and what that means for them, their business, their lives. So it's really opportunity for people to get creative, explore and experiment and be inspired to be who they are really is my kind of one thing that I hope people get from it.
Okay, real quick. If you're listening and thinking more women should be hearing conversations like this, the best way to support the show is just to follow or subscribe wherever you are. It really does help it reach more people. Thanks so much. Okay, back to the show.
I know you're going to do a book tour. You're doing a book tour. Is that going to be in the US at all? Well, the problem is that I'm boycotting the US on account of your president. That is that is a problem.
That is a problem. I have nothing. Okay. Go ahead. But I to be I probably I do believe it's really it's really needed and that the US is absolutely the perfect place for it.
and I have got so many people I love very dearly over on your side of the world. so never say never. Right now it's kind of shady. Never say never. I understand.
Well, in your book tour, at least in the UK, so they're but they're going to be separate. It's obviously you're not I was like if you come to the US, you can, you know, back to back it do like the the sessions and the book tour and all this stuff. But I'm kind of doing that in the UK. So, I'm doing a lot of the So, I'm doing quite a few of them in bookshops. So, that will be more like your average kind of won't boring, but it will be more like what you'd expect from a book tour.
And then I'm doing some that are sessions that are more out outlandish with burlesque and music and prot. One of them is going to be like a big protest where we make all of our own signs and have a photo shoot. and that's so I've I've got quite a lot of work to do. So much fun though. So much fun.
such like an empowering event. It sounds like so much. Yeah, they are really every time I do them I am reminded of why they're important. And actually what I was planning to do because I'm just one person and I'll be going on maternity leave in July anyway. It's very exciting.
I was actually planning to turn self-expression sessions into a community initiative where I create all of the assets and train people on the format, but give it to people in different communities to run their own with some quality assurance check-ins because it's for me it's not like I don't need to be the one that owns it. I just think it's a really important model and concept that I'd love to see all over the world. So maybe you could run the self-expression session for me, Danielle. You know, and I'm I'm stuck here anyway in the US. So I mean, I don't mean stuck.
I don't mean stuck, but you know, I mean, in some ways I mean stuck, but I'm here anyway, so there's no boycotting myself. And that sounds great. And I always love Is it like a one-day event? Is it a couple hours? Is it multi-day?
It depends. So most of the ones I've done have been evenings, so 6 till 9. I did one that was a full day event which was more like a retreat day around the theme of taking up space which was beautiful and but the evening ones are easier to do and I think those would be the ones that I would send out on little missions around and about. Yeah. So that would be really phenomenal if you wanted to give that a test drive.
We will have to talk again. I would love to try that because that's just very much up my alley. but also you have a mastermind now. Are you still going to have this? Yes.
So, the mastermind is currently running I won't be taking any more into it until next year, but it runs over a year. It's all about voice and visibility and because my background is in brand, so I also run an agency that works with nonprofit organizations to help them with their storytelling. So I kind of take all of that big business experience and then help founders to build their business brand and I don't like the term [clears throat] but personal brand and get themselves seen and we do a lot of public speaking training and pitching training and how do you get yourself out there beyond social media. So that's the brilliant mastermind. And then I also run a program called She's Electric, which is specifically public speaking.
which I will be running again in April through to June. Oh my gosh, you are so busy. You are doing a million things. All of them are. And I also I love the names of them all.
Like she's electric, Electric Peach, unpalatable. They're just they're very much they're very much in line with my way of thinking. So, it's all very palatable to me. I include after, you know, when this all comes out, I'll include all of this in the show notes, but is there anything else that you want to share for women like who maybe just today are feeling very much palatable and not loving that feeling? Is there one thing tell them today besides obviously get your book that could kind of even prompt them to feel a little bit better in their skin.
There is a quote that I have in my book that I have on my desk which is I wish I could show you when you are lonely or in darkness the astonishing light of your own being. And I wish that women could see how phenomenally powerful they are just by being them. And that none of those expectations, those desires that you need to be a certain way, whether that's how you look or how you're supposed to be. None of that actually matters. And none of that is real or true.
And if we were able to see ourselves in the way that other people see us or if we were able to see ourselves in the way that we truly are, then it would be there would be absolutely nothing that would stop us. And so that's the one thing that I really wish that women understood was their innate power. And I know that no matter who you are, no matter where you were born, no matter what your political persuasion, I know that you are powerful because you are a woman because you're alive today as a woman. And the second one is that I really wish that women would stop seeing themselves as like lamps when there's only one plug socket and if one person's shining, then they must be using the plug socket and that means that we have to be in the dark because actually we're fairy lights. And the more that we all are lighting up, the brighter that we shine.
And I really think we need to realize that even though we have been conditioned to see each other as competition, we actually need one another. And we need one another to shine. And it's never been more important to take care of our own shine, but also to be fierce, fierce advocate for other women shine, too. [clears throat] Oh my gosh. I just want to say one last thing and then I'm hanging up.
Thank you for saying that because I, you know, I talk to women. That's that's all I ever talk to. I mean, I have my family, but like all the all about women and sometimes I'll talk to women and I'm like and there are some mean girls in the club and some of the mean girls are positioned as women who are lifting up other women, but in weird. It's so scary because you're like, "Wait a second. " I actually I'm not gonna say any names.
I don't want to get sued. I There was a very famous woman who supposedly spoke for women and was uplifting women and all this stuff. And I read a profile from somebody who came to work for this woman and was like so excited. And she actually said that when she saw her, she actually she's like, I'm so horrified by this now, like in retrospect because she wasn't this woman who was going to she just was kind of branded as that. she hugged her.
She just went right up and like hugged her. She was so excited. And the woman was like not interested at all. Not everybody's a hugger, but it was really that she wasn't interested in she was up she was interested in shining a light on herself and that's you know what that's great. Go shine a light on yourself.
Like all the power to you but don't don't ring the bell as you're shining the light on everybody if that's not really what you want to do. It's okay it's okay to be selfish like if that's what you want to do. There's plenty of selfish guys out there and they don't get any backlash for it, you Don't say that because other women are attracted to that and they want they want that. We yearning for that kind of connection that uplifts us all, you know. So, thank you for actually being that for real.
And it takes time honestly like I find myself regularly having like pangs of jealousy that shows up that doesn't necessarily feel like jealousy. It might show up as who does she think she is? Like someone might be getting doing really well with something that I want to do really well with that I'm scared that I'm not going to do really well with and my first thought is wow it's not that like it's not that impressive or like I'm like do you know what I mean? And then and it's there. I feel it.
I believe the story that I'm telling myself but then I can go oh this is really interesting. this is because you're feeling insecure and that woman's smashing it and you're comparing yourself to her. Let's take a minute. Like, doesn't mean that the feeling goes away, but at least it means I don't act on that feeling. I don't then go out and tell other people about how actually she's really [ __ ] and like she's not really d which is what I would have done in the past.
I would it would have turned into some kind of a campaign. And I think that's what a lot of women do without realizing it is that we compare ourselves. We feel really inadequate in re response and then we hurt each other as a result of that feeling of inadequacy. Well, you've really what you're claiming even just based on our conversation, even prior to this conversation, we've interacted and I've always gotten the sense that you are actually the real deal and like and so thank you because we need more of that and thank you. We thank you too cuz this whole everything that you're doing is about lifting up women's voices and I think there is no more important time really to have platforms to tell for us to tell our stories for us to listen to one another's stories for us to come together as we are biologically meant to be together in sisterhood and we need that.
We do. Thank you so much for being here. I'm going to let everybody go. but thank you so much. Thank you.
I loved this conversation with Sophie. I'm reading her book, Beyond Palatable, right now, and it expands on so much of what we talked about here. I love how she put language to something that so many of us feel like how so much of our lives can start to feel like performance and how easy it is to lose touch with what's actually true for us. And next week, we're taking that idea out of the internal and into the spaces we move through. We're talking about what it looks like when women create environments where they don't have to shrink, explain, or perform at all with Chivonn Anderson.
If you are nodding along to this episode, share it with a friend. That's how these conversations keep going. See you next week on Roar.
Comments